The dreaded US commerce/military control list

Does anybody actually understand this thing?

[dpd1]

I'd be interested to hear any experience or opinions people have had regarding exporting from the US, any items which may be considered an item on the control list... Specifically the Military Control list.

We make some items that technically can be used by military, but can also be used by civilians. They are by no means some sort of high tech item. If a country couldn't make these on their own, I feel sorry for them. BUT... When reading the control list documents, it would appear our products could fall into the category of being controlled. That's the problem... If you read the documents, they word it so that it seems like just about anything could be deemed a controlled item. For instance... One line regarding electronics...

"Electronic systems or equipment specifically designed, modified, or configured for intelligence, security, or military purposes, for use in search, reconnaissance, collection, monitoring, direction finding, display, analysis and production of information from the electromagnetic spectrum and electronic systems or equipment designed of modified to counteract electronic surveillance or monitoring."

Whew... OK, so... Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that technically put something as simple as a tape recorder on the list?

The only example I have heard regarding the items we sell, was a "friend of a friend" type story someone told me. They said a friend sold a military surplus item to someone on eBay in the UK, and somehow customs got it, and they were fined $2500. This was not some high tech or otherwise illegal item... It was just a basic item traded on eBay all the time.

Now I'm thinking, there is no way customs people are going to be informed enough to know exactly what is on the list. So my guess is that you would either have to be sending something so obvious, that it would stand out... Like a weapon. Or something that shouts "Military" in the paperwork, or some other description that gets their attention... Or the item has some sort of "AN" part number or something right on it.

The other rumor I have heard, is that there have been businesses that went to get the license to allow them to export these types of items, only to be fined huge amounts of money for not having the license in the first place. This is what makes me apprehensive about even inquiring about a license.

At any rate... I have turned down some int. sales, because I worry about this. Even though, I seriously doubt our products would really be any huge benefit to any evil people out there. But I think if they still wanted to hassle us for it being an item on the list... technically they could.

[MrHard]

Now I'm thinking, there is no way customs people are going to be informed enough to know exactly what is on the list

Just like anything, the law can be applied strictly or with some latitude. The agent could be having a bad day and take frustrations out on you or let it go and see it as a music device. A successful case could be argued in both cases.

If it's enough to bother you, then it's enough to get the license.

[HRoth]

Well, which customs people are we talking about? Ours or those of some other country, like the UK? Because my experience with ours is that they are few and far between and hard-pressed to stop even huge shipments of cocaine much less the occasional tape recorder. The best thing to do, though, is call them up and ask them. Describe what you want to sell and ask them whether it's okay or not.

[dpd1]

This is mainly just a US issue. I really don't care what other countries think. I don't think there's much they can do to you except confiscate it or send it back.

I did call customs once, and the guy basically just told me to look at the list. I would never take anything one person says seriously anyway, because that won't mean jack in court.

As far as getting the license... I would love to. But like I said, I'm just very apprehensive after hearing some crazy stories. I'm worried I'm going to open up some Pandora's box of insane government bureaucracy. If there's some small time guys that have done it and didn't have any problems, that would make me feel better.

[dickbaker]

I sell some things that are definitely high-tech military equipment, and also things that aren't very high tech nor specifically military but nonetheless are prohibited from export.

It's painful to turn down a sale, but the downside potential can be much worse.

If someone orders something, has it shipped to a US address, and then ships it overseas himself, I have no way of knowing and it doesn't matter. If someone intends to do that and tells me, then I won't sell it to him.

I have a lot of members of the military ordering. If they're shipping to their home address, that's fine. If they give me an APO, it's a no-go. The only exception is if they give me paperwork showing that it's the military that's exporting the item and not the individual. I had one guy actually forge documents to try to get around it.

[LynxSI]

Your post doesn't really say what you sell so its hard to know. But I've seen barcode scanners held at the border because they are a "Laser Device". Yet barcode scanners are in basically every retail outlet accross North America. I'm sure someone was bored or trying to impress a new boss for their quick eye or something...

[dpd1]

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It just seems like a giant gray area.

How about you DB, have you considered getting the license?

[dickbaker]

How about you DB, have you considered getting the license?

It just doesn't seem worth the effort. For the things that are definitely military, there's no way I could get a license. The manufacturers sell directly to distributors in other countries.

For the items that are seemingly innocuous there's just not enough demand for the cost and paperwork.

I had a guy from Czechoslovakia who was visiting the US call and ask if he could buy a regular plain old sporting good and take it back home with him. I called customs, and they referred me to another agency that referred me to another.

In the end, this every day item couldn't be taken out of the country unless the customer filled out all sorts of paperwork. It was ridiculous.

[dpd1]

Yeah, see that's the nightmare I want to avoid. Plus, I have this fear with all the terrorist hysteria, that I'll be putting myself on their radar. This is one of those things where saying "no" is a heck of a lot easier for them to say then yes. Because nobody wants to take responsibility for saying yes to something.

In fact, now I'm wondering if some of the non mil stuff could even be twisted into something they'd claim is not for export.

I could understand high tech items, but just average everyday stuff... that shouldn't be a big deal. I mean, as long as it's not going to Syria or something.