Fraud Order. I think

[adamnichols45]

I have had a member contact me on a very well known auction website.

They have placed a rather large order which wont go through the website.

They want to pay via paypal but there feedback on the auction site is only 1 (100%) they are also from the netherlands.

They have also said they will meet the paypal fees.

any feedback. My eyebrows are rasied. contact gone back and forth now for several days.

What pre-cautions can I take. I dont want to get stung!

Thanks for any info

[Corey Bryant]

Your eyebrows should be raised. Go with your gut and walk away from it. They are relying on your greed unfortunately right now in hopes of making some money for them, not you.

[HugeNerd]

Tell them of your suspicion and that you need to allow any money to clear accounts before shipment. If the order is large enough, tell them you will need a credit card on file and that you will only ship to the billing address of the credit card. Then do an authorization for the full amount of the order on the credit card -- that way you can make sure they have the funds available. I am not sure on the legality/ethics of such a move, but that way you could be sure they are who they are saying they are and that you are shipping to the person paying for it.

[Wlauzon]

...If the order is large enough, tell them you will need a credit card on file and that you will only ship to the billing address of the credit card....

Many European countries do not participate in the AVS or other system, so there is no way at all to tell if the address they give matches the CC or not.

Which is why we use PayPal only for most euro sales. If it looks fishy, tell the customer you need like 10 days or so to verify that the PP transaction went through OK.

[Corey Bryant]

Just doing an pre-authorization is not enough. The buyer could give the merchant a stolen card number. That stolen card number might not be reported just yet.

You do a pre-authorization / sale today, get your money on Wednesday morning. You send the product out that afternoon. Friday rolls around, you log into you merchant account portal and see a chargeback there for the order - Reason Code 81: Fraudulent Transaction - Card-Present Environment. Not too much you can do about it now unfortunately.

Waiting can be OK, but the card associations sway to the consumer - the product should be sent out when the transaction is completed.

[MrHard]

Try a bank wire transfer. They cant be reversed and it is not that hard to do. Someone making a large purchase will usually be willing to go this extra step, if not it's a sign they are not serious. You do however have to give your account number (possibility someone could make a forged check with the info. but unlikely. If they don't suggest it as a payment method I usually call it safe). It shifts the worry onto the customer but sure puts my mind at ease during large purchases, I wish they could all be done this way.

[Green_Grass]

MrHard

There are going to forum members who are going to jump in and say..Wire transfers can be fraudulent and reversed ! Just wait.. I have already gone thru. THAT discussion..Wasn't impressed.

[HRoth]

I would not be very suspicious of a large purchase from the Netherlands, but I would want Paypal seller protection on it, and it looks like there is none for the Netherlands.

I wouldn't accept a wire transfer because yes, they are reversible in cases of fraud. If you feel concerned, you should talk to your international wire transfer banker, not some teller or even the head of your branch. IME, they know pretty much nothing about international transactions. You have to call the bank head office and talk to someone in charge of international wire transfers. I used to have a lot of foreign customers and used this without worry, but I was selling a service, not goods that can be resold.

You can always ask for cash in USD. I have done this. People can send it by courier.

[adamnichols45]

The buyer has now agreed wire transfer...

We sell goods but they are all branded products and we are the brand.

The product is very niche to be honest and when I started this I knew fraud would not be a major problem.

6 months on and we are still running with a clean slate.

touch wood.

[MrHard]

I think it may be bank error you are referring to in cases where wires are reversed, not fraud.

The whole basis of internet scams exist, Nigerian chain letters, classified ads etc. because wire transfers are not reversible.

Usually the thief sends a bad check and asks the vistim to wire back the money.

If wires were reversible in cases of fraud they could all get their money back with no problems.

[LifeinAsia]

Perhaps the confusion is one of semantics. Fraud from willingly sending money to a supposed Nigerian prince is one thing. What some people are calling fraudulent wire transfers would be better described as theft- someone gets access to someone else's bank account and sends wire transfers without the account owner's knowledge or permission.

If you are on the receiving end of such a wire transfer, you are technically in receipt of stolen goods, which can be taken away by the police. So, yes, wire transfers CAN be reversible.

[Shaddows]

To clarify, losing funds due to your own stupidity is (usually) non-reversable.

Banks do not hold themselves to the same levels of responsibility. If they allow unauthorised transfer of funds, that is reversable.

They have a resposibility to the Account Holder to return the funds to the account, and internal agreements backed by law enforcement that mean only the fraudster is out of pocket

[Bewenched]

In our experience and we do alot of international orders... we havent had any problems with the netherlands, however I would make sure that payment is complete. NEVER do wire transfers... unless you have a separate account set up just to receive them...

[Shimrit]

I don't know if this is still the case, but it used to be quite easy to open bank account in the Netherlands even if you weren't resident in the EU.

I've also seen some stories about Nigerian scam gangs operating from there in the past, but then again, they operate everywhere nowadays.

[adamnichols45]

it was dodge after all be careful.