Forum Moderators: buckworks
The customer placed an order on 1/7/05 on the phone with me. Part of that order was for a grille for $700, which is the item in dispute. The customer received his order on 1/14/05.
I have all the tracking information available which was sent in to CC processor to dispute this issue.
The customer got his grille and was unhappy with the fit of the grille. After speaking to him, he agreed to ship the grille back at his cost. When the grille was received from the customer, it was damaged. At that point we called the shipper.
The shipper picked up the grille and the customer was notified. All of this is documented with the shipper. The shipper's tracking number also shows that the grille came in damaged, and they took it back, and are returning items to sender, which is my customer.
I immediately got the facts together and faxed
them in the very next day to CC processor, 1 day after I got the chargeback email. How can this be anyone's problem other than the buyer's? Of course, he would have received a refund if the grill was received in like new condition, as the terms state on my website about returns. When it was received damaged, the shipper took it, the customer was contacted and it is the customer's liability because he didn't failed to insure it.
Under the circumstances (customer shipped grille back on his own via the shipper and it was damaged). This customer must work with the shipper to get his money back. We have told the customer he needs to talk with the shipper to resolve this matter as they are the ones responsible for damages. As the tracking number from the customer indicates, the shipper is sending this item back to the customer. He was the shipper, and it is his responsibility.
I have faxed all this info above with all tracking numbers that show it was damaged.
The CC processor says, since the customer no longer has the merchandise, they can't offer me my money back.
Can anyone tell me what to do?
How can the buyer already have received a refund when I just learned of this problem and responded with all the info the very next day? The buyer just lies to his credit card company and automatically, without hearing from the
other side, gets a refund. In all the documents/info from the shipper they have seen, it shows
the shipper picked up the damaged grill and the shipper will only give that buyer (since he was the shipper) the grill back. As the shipper's paperwork states, it goes back to shipper (the buyer in this case). The buyer never put insurance on this item, so instead of him
being out (which is clearly the case), he is taking advantage of us, the merchant.
[edited by: lorax at 12:42 pm (utc) on Mar. 10, 2005]
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Because that is how it is with the credit card banks.
They are on the customers side against the merchant, basically 100% of the time. Surprising why they are always like that since it is unlikely the cust is even one of their own card holders but usually with another bank.
The situation is so bad that CC processor (and other credit card firms too) routinely even allow the customer to KEEP the merchandise and do NOT require it be returned, let alone received back in good condition!
Over the yrs some of my clients have kept my goods or service I shipped in good faith, often valued at from $400 to $1000 and still did a chargeback and I lost it all. All he needs to do is tell them to charge it back, for most any reason, little explanation wanted or needed.
In fact, my experience was always they do not even ask the buyer to send back the items but let him keep it and still allow most all chargebacks. The entire situation sucks big time. I know it takes lots of new sales to get the lost $725 back!
[edited by: trader at 6:51 am (utc) on Mar. 10, 2005]
[edited by: lorax at 12:44 pm (utc) on Mar. 10, 2005]
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I left some important info out. What happened was the customer called his CC company and said he sent back the item, and never got a credit. The CC company then billed my credit card processor, then they took the funds from me. The item was never successfully returned and was broken in half.
[edited by: lorax at 12:46 pm (utc) on Mar. 10, 2005]
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As I told you before, I had seen a number of chargebacks over the many yrs I have been taking credit cards and not one of the firms ever required the goods or services be returned (let alone in good condition - LOL). Most customers did return it even though I did not want it back (sometimes it came back used and ragged looking)
Another sad thing is you may not file a damage claim yourself with the shipping company as far as I know. That can only come from the shipper and why would he do that since he already has his money back? In fact, he likely may not even try to do so since he had no loss at all from the damage.
If he was in your area (and not out of state) you could go to small claims court but since he tried to return it you would likely lose anyway. I also see no way you could sue the shipper since you were not the insured party. Situations like this are always hopless.
[edited by: lorax at 12:50 pm (utc) on Mar. 10, 2005]
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[edited by: lorax at 6:28 pm (utc) on Mar. 10, 2005]
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Is there anything better than the secured source account I have for an internet merchant account to prevent this from happening? From what others have said on this forum, authorize.net teamed with Wells fargo is highly recommended.
I have to take all of these as loss.
hmm...
I guess what I'm asking, is there anything I can do for my online business that will protect me from this. It seems not. What seem true is, any customer can make up any story they want, true or false and get their money back, in the end killing the small business owner. Doesn't anyone care when there is proof they are lying? This is illegal.
They are getting away with murder. The credit card companies are the "bad cop". Did you kill this person? Consumer, "No, I didn't". Someone shows proof he did kill them, Bad cop/credit card company says, "Ohh well...."
I saw something else on the new about companies that purchase your chargebacks, and fight them for you for a fee.
Trader, is there an email I can reach you at? You have been very helpful.
No, one reason I participate here and at other forums is I do not want my information made public (except to forum members) or get it mixed up with business emails, etc.
The firms and things mentioned in post 6 and 7 are worthless and will not help at all. There is no way to fight them, the credit card firms will always side with the card holder and let him win regardless of how strong your case is.
Yes, it is true that you can easily dispute the reversal but will still lose. In addition, the Credit Card Bank Verified Program which was recommended will still permit the chargeback to take place for reasons like it was returned, refused, not as promised, not satisfied, poor quality, not as advertised, damaged, sale misrepresented, false advertising, and almost any other reason.
There are in fact a few cool and powerful things that can be done but the forum TOS rules here apparently do not permit discussions of a specific nature, or firm names being given (they only permit "general non-specific" discussions), so can not discuss those unique aspects. I also do not want to use email and messenegers etc since that defeats the reasons I use forum boards in the first place.
P.S. Some stuff I said in posts were deleted by Mod with notices from Mod about it, so nothing more I can say or do.
....Visa's Verified by Visa program, you may want to look into that. It keeps chargebacks from reaching the merchant's processing bank.
But why does that matter or really make any difference since I am sure most all chargebacks are still permitted? Perhaps I am missing something?
VbV blocks fraudulent chargebacks in the Visa network. Issuing bank recieves a chargeback for fraud...they try and send it through Visa.net....Visa.net sends it back because the chargeback was issued against a VbV merchant. The issuing bank is now liable for their cardholder for once.
If the Visa-Verified program was better why would we all not be in it and why use other services?
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"Visa continues to develop new technologies to combat emerging forms of fraud. Its latest development is "Verified by Visa," a new system that enables a bank to verify a cardholder's identity during an online purchase using a variety of authentication methods, including a password, smart Visa card or digital certificate, and provide the results to the merchant during the checkout process."
"Verified by Visa can provide merchants with significant savings in fraud-related costs. Merchants who use Verified by Visa are protected from fraud-related chargebacks on all personal Visa cards—credit or debit, domestic, or international—whether or not the issuer or cardholder is participating in Verified by Visa, with limited exceptions. Find out how merchants have successfully implemented Verified by Visa"
Everyone should be using it. You'd be stupid not to.
[edited by: lorax at 2:29 pm (utc) on Mar. 11, 2005]
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I suspect it's really a non-issue for many here. The main issue is chargebacks which are *NOT* due to credit card fraud. On that *BIG* issue the banks and credit card firms are doing absoilutely nothing to help the merchants who are routinely cheated out of zillions of dollars.
To Clarify: VbV and MasterCard SecureCode only protect you from fraudulent use of the card. They do not protect you from chargebacks initiated by customer complaints.
Screw the cc processors - sue the customer directly for damages?
I have the proof, and they choose to ignore it!
I've already spoken with a few lawyers, and the cost to fight it will be the same if not more of the chargeback.
