Forum Moderators: buckworks
So if you see a piece of software for sale online and you can only buy it through Paypal, beware. That may mean the sellers know the software is worthless, but by using only Paypal for sales they know the buyers have no recourse over the defective product.
-Corey
And what you got was not "defective" as far as PP was concerned, it was just junky software.
If I had paid for it with my charge card, I could have challenged the bill..
Yes you could have, but no guarantee you would win the dispute. We have had customers dispute credit card charges based on "it's not what we thought it was", and we win nearly all of them.
Non delivery or outright defective are legitimate issues, your bad purchasing choices are not (even though many seem to think so).
[edited by: Wlauzon at 5:02 pm (utc) on Oct. 8, 2006]
The issuing banks are going to side more with the customer than the merchant. The customer is the one who has the account. The merchant has a merchant account to accept credit cards but issuing banks do not care.
-Corey
your bad purchasing choices are not (even though many seem to think so).
Using your logic, if I bought a refrigerator that didn't keep my foods cold, then would that just be a bad purchasing choice on my part and I would not be entitled to a refund?
I did contact the software people and they refused to give me a refund. I checked their product on Amazon (too late, though) and they had quite a few bad reviews and no positive ones, so it wasn't just my opinion.
I think they purposely have Paypal as the only buying option because they know they are selling a piece of junk and with Paypal though don't know they won't have to issue a refund.
I realize now why there are so many Paypal sucks web sites.
Anyway, just thought I'd share that with everyone here what happened so maybe someone else won't have to make the same mistake I did and enrich some sleazy software developer.
[edited by: Jane_Doe at 10:34 pm (utc) on Oct. 8, 2006]
2. I recently purchased some software via CC and upon finding it pretty junky and not suitable, tried claiming my 30 day refund as the company offers one. They ignored my emails and contacting the CC company resulted in "Well we checked with you and you confirmed you did wish to buy it, so nothing we can do".
Then the software company finally got back to me, explained they has a mix-up and refunded.
Credit card company - 0
Software company 8
I agree, Paypal seriously sucks in many respects, especially their "subscription" service that "reminds" you of a subscription renewal too late to cancel it (such as the infuriating issue of finding myself paying for a hosting account I haven't used for a year and having moved my domain to a different host and my access to the old host now blocked, account cancelled - but I was apparantly still "subscribed" to it!)
However your comments above don't really reflect well on paypal sellers like me :oP
You can't guarantee a refund on credit card either. However my UK Halifax account DOES offer a guarantee on anything purchased online, so check you CC company before blaming PP
P
You can't guarantee a refund on credit card either.
With a credit card you have a fighting chance of getting your money back. You at least have some leverage. In most cases I've always gotten my money back, and in the one case I didn't, I simply cancelled the card and refused to pay the disputed amount.
With Paypal you have no protection at all. I won't use them anymore for any purchase over $10 or so.
There is a reason for all of these law suits against them.
[webmasterworld.com...]
[edited by: Jane_Doe at 5:06 pm (utc) on Oct. 9, 2006]
So then they have the gall to send out a survey as a part of Paypal's "commitment to excellence" asking for feedback on their "dispute resolution process."
Since when is sending out an automated form letter saying you aren't going to do anything even a "process", let alone a demonstration of a "commitment to excellence"?
Using your logic, if I bought a refrigerator that didn't keep my foods cold, then would that just be a bad purchasing choice on my part and I would not be entitled to a refund? ...
Uhm.. duh..
I *DID* say defective. Obviously a refrigerator that does not refrigerate is defective. However, expecting a chargeback on it because you got a purple one and your wife hates you for it is NOT legit.
I checked their product on Amazon (too late, though) and they had quite a few bad reviews and no positive ones...
It seems to me that would have been your FIRST action, before you bought it. I never never ever buy any unknown software without Googling it first for problems and reviews.
And as far as PayPal "sucking", we have had FAR less issues with PP and PP users than we have had with your typical VISA user, who calls their bank at the drop of a hat to dispute anything they don't recognize on their bill. There is a reason why we have a list of customers that we will not sell to...
[edited by: Wlauzon at 6:54 am (utc) on Oct. 10, 2006]
Non delivery or outright defective are legitimate issues, your bad purchasing choices are not (even though many seem to think so).
The software was defective.
It had a good review on one of the PC magazine sites, so now I know not to trust those. Another lesson.
Your other points (along with all of the law suits and Paypal sucks sites) basically just support my position that buyers have little, if any, consumer protection rights with Paypal.
[edited by: Jane_Doe at 1:44 pm (utc) on Oct. 10, 2006]
you should contact PayPal directly by phone
I appreciate the suggestion, but I already spent a lot of time trying to follow their complaint policy and that was a joke. So timewise, I think I'm going to cut my losses at this point.
The larger issue is not that I was ripped off by a particular software company. The core issue is that I was an idiot for using Paypal to buy anything of value online since they don't have any real consumer protection rights. But at least by posting here maybe I can prevent other people from making the same mistake I did.
Honestly - I think your problem is with the seller or the manufacturer, not with the payment processor in this case. You paid for software - you got the software. How should the payment processor judge if the software was ok or not especially when it had positive reviews in certain computer magazines? On the contrary if you simply issue a chargeback and not pay for the software it could very well end with the seller reporting you to the police for fraud.
However the whole case depends in which way the sofware was "a piece of junk". Did you pay for an Anti Virus program and the download was a tetris game?
Or did they promise features in the softwares description which were clearly not available? If this was the case you could propably get your money back in small claims court since the purchase contract was not fulfilled by the seller.
Or did you only expect the software would have certain features and it turned out it did not? Or was the software just not what you expected in terms of usibility? This would be an entirely different case. Simply issuing chargebacks because not liking the product could end with you getting into serious legal trouble instead of the seller.
Honestly - I think your problem is with the seller or the manufacturer, not with the payment processor in this case...
I think this is the point that is being overlooked.
If the purchase had been made in cash I suspect the result would have been what your call to void your Euro's would be :P
Far too many are passing their own shopping mistakes onto the credit card companies, and far too often, the credit card companies have gone along with it in an effort to keep people using their 18% interest rate cards.
Blaming the card processor instead of the seller, the manufacturer, or your own buying choices is just one more way of taking the easy way out.
Personally, I am happy that PayPal is not near as eager as to refund as VISA is on a whim.
Simply issuing chargebacks because not liking the product could end with you getting into serious legal trouble instead of the seller...
And in fact, we have sued in small claims court two instances like that. In both cases we won, and in the 2nd case the buyer also had to pay all court and transportation costs, which cost him about what the original dispute was.
This does not go that far often - 2-3 times in about 10 years, and is a last resort, but it can be done.
And a side effect also that can happen is that you get your name sent to places like Equifax and it can affect your credit rating.
[edited by: Wlauzon at 11:55 pm (utc) on Oct. 11, 2006]
I don't appear to be the only person who has had an issue with them on this. There is a reason why the attorney generals of 28 states went after them and also why there was a class action suit brought against them by their customers, all regarding shady consumer protection issues.
[news.yahoo.com...]
With Paypal you have the same chance of getting your money back over a defective product as you do if you sent cash through the mail.
And the fact is, because the CC companies are making such huge amounts of money on credit card interest and fees that they will - at least for a while - continue to operate as they have.
But the downside is, if they keep making it easier and easier for merchants to get ripped off, either prices will go up or some will simply stop taking cards, or will ask for a lot more personal information to back themselves up.
With some CC rates going as high as 30% with all the fees etc, they are a gold mine. But most have treated merchants like crap, and some of us are getting tired of it.
I understand that Paypal is better for sellers, but the core fact remains that most people do not have any consumer protection rights using Paypal. Everything you guys are saying as sellers basically is just supporting this point.
which usually say that the seller has no recourse if a PayPal customer asks for a refund...
Most of those are wrong, or pertain to the pre-eBay version of PP.
PP will not refund simply because the customer "asks for a refund".
Well Veruca Salt, maybe it is this type of behavior that PP is trying to eliminate.
