Fallen victim to International Credit Card Fraud?

[saskiastrick]

Hiyas,

Any of you fallen victim to INTERNATIONAL fraud?
Would you care to share your story so that we may all learn from that.

Would like to know what country was involved and how they went about it etc?

I hope this is not too personal but I would really like to know since I deal a lot with International customers.

Thank you very much!

Sas

[Macro]

ajolayi, I hate to burst your bubble.

If you are based in Nigeria and you are running an honest business you have not only my congratulations but my enormous admiration. Almost everything there is corrupt from the street waifs who crawl under your car in go slows (traffic queues) to disconnect your fuel line - so their mates a few yards down the road can repair your car for you - to the corrupt police department who'd do anything for a couple of dollars including hiring their firearms/ammo to the local "highwaymen". Even the telecommunications industry you speak so highly off is staffed by people who disconnect your phones every few days just so they can make money "repairing" them.

There is enormous amount of money in Nigeria because of the large oil reserves. Major oil companies have large operations there and employ a lot of people. But they've learnt that most oiuboes (westerners) are too naive to live in Nigeria at large so most of them shelter their western employees in secure compounds with armed guards. The companies that have survived doing business in Nigeria have learnt to work with the system.

I'm surprised at your outrage at what you call "prejudice". From our experience running businesses in the UK I can assure you that the largest number of fraud attempts made on our systems are for delivery to Nigerian addresses. The largest number of advance fee emails we get are from Nigerians (based on the postal address they provide). Unless there are millions of Indonesians out there who are faking these emails and using Nigerian addresses to discredit your country I would maintain that Nigeria is a high risk country to accept orders from.

I wish you all the best in setting up the system you desire. I wish the EFCC all the best in their efforts. And the sooner these problems are eradicated the better. But let's not confuse fact with fiction. If you had to pick a single country that was the riskiest to take "card not present" transactions from it is Nigeria.

[Brett_Tabke]

What's a chargeback? <snicker>

We run worldpay, 2checkout, and paypal on about a half dozen sites I'm involved with. After 1/4 million through the three this year, we can count the chargebacks on 1 hand and the money we actually lost on zero hands :-) Fraud is not even an issue for us.

[Macro]

Brett, you're in the right business ;-)

Don't ever start selling high value electronic products/easily resellable goods. You'll suddenly become a target for every Nigerian crook who can find his way to an internet cafe.

[grandpa]

After 2 fraud orders in a row last month we adopted this policy. Any credit transaction on any order not deliverable to N America will be voided before the end of day settlement. This saves us the problems of chargebacks since we never accepted the charge. We then verify the credit information and re-bill the customer before we ship.

I posted a couple of phone numbers to check international cards with Visa and Mastercard. Will go find them again if anyone is interested.

[mansterfred]

grandpa

I would love those numbers

[TallTroll]

>> I'm surprised at your outrage at what you call "prejudice".

Well, if someone had made sweepingly generalisations about your nation, I think you'd respond with some passion too ;)

Whilst it is true that Nigeria generates significant amounts of ecommerce fraud attempts, they are by no means the only nation from which such attempts originate. According to some sources, Asian and ex-Soviet / Eastern European nations are actually bigger sources of fraud

Nigeria is at least making efforts to recognise and combat these problems, for which they should be recognised.

Anyone involved in ecommerce should have some sort of anti-fraud procedure in place, which will identify suspect orders from anywhere. A lot of online c/c fraud is related to identity theft, one of the fastest growing law enforcement challenges in the US. Geography is not everything

[ajolayo]

Thanks everyone for the reply to this nigerian issue.

First of all I want everyone to understand what nigeria has gone through before reaching this stage.
We've had 35 years of military misrule, wanton mismanangement of funds and the common man has continued to be oppressed, supressed and depressed.

This is our business and nobody else's but I am trying to make you guys see the genesis of the myraid of fraud committedby Nigerians.

An average Nigerian saw his leaders leaving a life of opulence while he continued to survive in abject poverty.
So what does he do, he makes up his mind to make money and be rich by all means whether by hook or crook.

The advent of the internet in Nigeria saw to peddling of some rumors that There are billions of dollars on the net unclaimed waiting for some smart person to claim it. This was reinforced by the many adverts and popups that subject our eyes and minds to continual abuse that you've won $10,000 and the likes. So naturally, the average Nigerian felt it was tru that there was real money on the net.

When he tried all this adverts but he didnt seem to make this money that was advertised, he resorts to the other way he feels he can make the money which is through fraud.

Now who do we blame: him, the Nigerian government or the false guys on the net?

Well as I said we have a new government that is doing all it can to stem the tide of fraud and corruption.
All I can wish is that every other person sees this point, wish us well and help us to combat this tide too.
And please let everybody know that there are some law abiding and good Nigerians.

Thanks
Ajolayo

[Macro]

I did not make generalisations about the people of Nigeria. I have a lot friends there (and family) and the Nigerians are warm, friendly and helpful, the extent of which you won't find here in the UK.

Nigeria is to be commended on its efforts to eradicate the many frauds perpetrated from its shores.

TallTroll, my comments related to online transactions - with cards - for delivery to Nigerian addresses. My point simply is that those honest people living in Nigeria wouldn't use their cards online for a variety of reasons. I understand that this is difficult to believe so if any webmaster here has actually been paid for such an order can you stand up please? Ajolayo, do YOU know anybody living in Nigeria who regularly uses their cards online?

please let everybody know that there are some law abiding and good Nigerians

I can vouch for that, there are a lot of law abiding and good Nigerians. But my original comment on TRANSACTIONS still holds.

[ajolayo]

Thanks TallTroll and MAcro for your response.
Macro, Yes I do know people that use their credit card in Nigeria. I for one use mine (MasterCard Debit Card) though I use it only for non physicals. I mean softwares, e-books, domain name reg and hosting payments.

Well on a lighter note how do you think that legitimate businesses in Nigeria (mine for one) can convince other internationals of their genuineness.

I mean we have a contract with a US company to provide virtual Debit Cards for some Nigerians. But we have a problem of what the billing addresses would be. If they come with Nigerian billing addresses, some merchants would outrightly reject them, do you have any idea?

Also mastercard is making a foray into the Nigerian market next year. What do you feel?

I'll love genuine response from anybody.

Thanks
Ajolayo

[ytswy]

Hi ajolayo, its great to hear your point of view on this. I'm just a small online merchant, but these are my thoughts:

I think Nigerians (and people from other countries with similar problems) are going to have problems using cards for a long time.

Like most people here, we get a large number of blatant fraud attempts from Nigeria. Maybe there is the odd legitimate order in amongst them, but there is no way - from a business point of view - that we can justify doing anything except binning them.

What we would need to sell to Nigeria would be a cast iron assurance that the funds have been paid. Essentially some third party who takes the risks on the transaction - we get the money, ship the goods, and anything after that is someone else's problem. Realistically this third party would have be (or be guaranteed by) a major organisation such as a bank or government.

If this service existed, and received enough publicty, then I'm sure any merchant would happilly take orders from it - always assuming that they didn't charge the merchant any more than current credit card rates of course.. someone would have to pay the costs, and that someone would have to be the consumer.

Quite how you would sort out disputes (customer claiming product not delivered, faulty etc.), I don't even want to think.

All of this is hard on the honest Nigerian, but with businesses all over the world deluged in fradulent orders from Nigeria (originating from a small number of people I'm sure), I don't think anyone with a Nigerian address is going to be able to make international credit card purchases for a long time to come.

[saskiastrick]

Hiyas,

Ajolayo I have a question for you:
How exactly does your service work?
I mean with the virtual credit cards etc. I have to be honest never heard of that till now.

Are you the middle man between the Nigerian consumer and the company that issues the virtual credit card and charge a fee for that?

Is this something like a prepaid card?
how is the businiess going and how long have you been in business with your company?

I had a look at your website but couln't quite figure out how it worked. I think the concept is a very interesting one
Can you please explain in detail?

Thank you,

Saskia

[ajolayo]

Thanks guys for the interest in our services and for your honest responses to my question. I will answer all the questions for me together without special refrence to who asked or in what order. Hope you dont mind?

First of all, we are kind of middlemen between Nigerians and this US company. These cards that we provide are Prepaid Virtual Cards. What is going on is that we have deposited a sum of $5,000 with this company. Now this money is broken down into denominations $20,$50,$100 etc.
When Nigerians want the cards, they will pay us with our incorporated charges and then we contact the company with the person's details and then the person's card details are sent. We've been in this business for about Six months and business is moving though somewhat slow because some merchants do not receive payments from Nigeria. Another option given to us by the US company is that we'll use thier address as the billing address the cards come with. We've tried that and it worked but what of IP mapping. I really do not know what to do?
How do we publicise our service so that online merchants can receive payments from Nigeria? Who do you think we can make our surety or third party to guarantee since if we mention a Nigerian Bank, people might raise eye brows?
I need answers please.
Hope I have anwered everybody's question?

Thanks
Kunle

[Miop]

I have a jewellery shop, and 90% of my dodgy transactions are from Nigeria. They are nearly always for at least 3 heavy gold chains.
I have a feeling they use my site to try cards to see which ones work.

One did work once, unfortunately - it was for £1600. I immediately refunded it. However, Worldpay did not refund the transaction fees (Streamline, the company which Worldpay uses do, but Worldpay don't). I lost £60 in fees. I also had my funds frozen because the card was a replica of a genuine one, and their bank did not note the refund, only the payment. I had £1600 of my funds frozen for 4 weeks while they chased it up. I almsot went out of business trying to fulfil orders with no income! (I am paid 8 weeks in arrears...)

I now have preauthorisation on my account, so I can sit here and laugh wryly while they try to order 10 Byzantine chains for 4000 quid. It has got worse lately..someone tried one for £10000 the other night!

[Noahfecks]

Hello I came across this site through a google search.
I was propositioned by a random woman on the internet to receive and send a few items to a Nigeria address, for $500. I was skeptical at first, but I saw no risk in it for me so I thought I'd help her out and make some money for myself. I have already sent a few items, but I got a letter today in her name saying that one of her credit card orders had not gone through so I became suspicious. Thus my google research and finding this site. So I am wondering if this is a scam am I helping or if the lady is just trying to get some things into Nigeria. And whats a good way to make sure? She said she was from Michigan but was on a business trip to Turkey, however, she gave me a Nigeria telephone number. Any advice in this matter would be appreciated ASAP so I can take further action if necessary.

Thank you,
Sean

[Essex_boy]

I worked for a year in and around the (Peoples democratic republic of) Hackney, north east London, numerous firms there will NOT deal with Nigerians that walk in off of the street.

Unless they pay cash.

worth noting?

[superscript]

Let's not appear racist!

I work from the UK.

I only ship to the UK and Eurozone, but I still treat continental European orders more carefully than UK ones. I guess it is the geographical separation that makes fraud easier - and the fraudsters are in a way correct - we're not going to go knocking on doors in Finland, and neither is Interpol going to be interested.

In short, if someone rips me off from, say, Scandinavia, I'll sufer a cashback and there is very little I can do about it.

I always watch out for:

Very large orders + an immediate order track to check status.

We generally send an e-mail saying: 'Many thanks for your order, we're really curious where you heard about us in (country).

The genuine people invariably get back with a friendly e-mail explaining - this also verifies that their e-mail address, at very least!, is valid.

[Essex_boy]

Not racism, fact. go to Hackney and see. People are dubious of Nigerians, any that I have worked with have been honest as the day is long and oddly most seem to be devout christians.

Still on a lighter note, I had an order sent to the USA guy complains to the credit card firm 4 days after the order. Yeah right its going to take 7 -10 minimum.

Shortly afterwards the order arrives he not pays up but phones me in the UK to say sorry.

I told him for his honesty, keep the order free of charge.

Some how I think ill sell to him again.

[yintercept]

One odd thing is that fraud travels in packs. My guess is that there are people testing out small things. Once they find the hole, then they will hit you for all you are worth. Often people who commit fraud tell their friends, who tell their friends, etc..

Small sites have the problem that they will be cruising along, happy that they have few chargebacks, then suddenly get hit with a 100 or more fraudulent orders...often from addresses with legitimate sales history.

BTW, the worst fraud I've experienced is a from a third world nation called Fresno. A fairly large number of Fresonovians speak English and the country has a zip code format that is similar to the US. So it is hard to detect.

[Essex_boy]

Yes thats a fact, I used to work with young offenders and a when shop in an area was 'easy' they all knew in days.

I see no reason why it shouldnt be so in the E'world.

[Ledfish]

We appear to be getting targeted by people in the Czech Republic at the moment. So for now we have stopped ship any order there. We just removed it the Czech Republic from our shipping countries list and have refused any order that did get through.

Some one early mentioned a shipping redirect, can anybod explain this in more detail and what the early warning signs are?

[ajolayo]

Hello,
Concerning the Nigerian woman issue, I think you've been duped cos anyone that leaves 3 different addresses with Nigeria as that third one should be properly scrutinized before the orders are shipped down.
I am a Nigerian and I would not mind to help you check out the address you shipped to if you want me to.

take care
Ajolayo

[saskiastrick]

All,

Just thought I'd let you all know that I received my very first legit Nigerian order.

In fact when I asked this person how he was proposing to pay, he replied with 'would a wire tranfer into your account be alright'?

This is obviously a Nigerian who understands the problem and is aware that tranfers are the only way he will be able to buy anything online.

Ajolayo when your site is finished I will refer him to you!

cheers ...

sas

[ajolayo]

Saskia thanks so much.
All, this shows that some NIgerians are good and that all remains is for you to give them a chance and theyy willl prove themselves. I am not saying we should not be wary but we should not just outrightly reject people cos they are Nigerians.

Thanks Saskia once agin.
I will contact you soon.

Thanks

Ajolayo