MSN - Let's get an answer

Where do the SERPs come from

[chris_f]

Let me start out by saying I mean search.msn.com

I know the first three results are GOverture (Is there a shorthand for GOverture). I read in this post [webmasterworld.com] that the first five are L$. Is this really capped at five? If so, where does INK come into the equation. For my keywordA I use INKs pure search [169.207.238.189] and find out I'm second. Yet on MSN I am 72nd. It looks like INK starts at 71 for my keyword. Are all the rest L$ PPC. If so, how come the URL does not contain any code to register the click. I should point out that I have refused to PPC for L$.

Any clarification would be appreciated.

Chris.

[chris_f]

Any clarification ... honest.

[Marcia]

Chris, at MSN the "featured sites" come first - for those you have to pay MSN direct, it's through them. Then come the Overture, and then the Looksmart, however many there are - and some have a lot of LS, some only a few. After all of those the Inktomi listings start, where it's headed up "web pages."

[weisinator]

Somehow I got into INK's DB without paying (I can't speculate, and I'm not about to ask :) ). I rank 5th for a targeted keyword, and this 5th ranking also comes in on search.msn.com (and the IE search bar)

[namniboose]

'and then the Looksmart, however many there are....'

Marcia, the LookSmart listings on MSN for my travel-related keywords are all being capped at 5-7 or so, despite the fact that there are over a hundred listings still in the LookSmart directory. The format has changed too: the 'web directory sites' have been separated from (Inktomi) 'webpages' instead of being merged.

My Inktomi listing on MSN jumped suddenly from page 5 to page 1 and, as I said in my other post, it's not because tons on L$ sites suddenly dropped out (of course some have disappeared).

I don't understand why no one else is seeing this - maybe it's just being tried out for a few keywords.

If this is the new look of MSN, that will have a BIG IMPACT.

Is this breaking news or am I really a Namniboose?!

[makemetop]

Check your Inktomi positions on different MSNs (MSN UK, NineMSN, MSN Canada etc) with where you are on MSN.com.

You will see that MSN are using a new Inktomi feature which gives a boost to sites in specific geographical areas - but it is not a filter. You will still get US sites showing up above UK sites (for example) if Ink deems them more popular or much, much better in optimisation terms.

Try a search for 'search engine optimisation' on MSN.com (mind the spelling checker) - you will see that the second site in 'web pages' is a .com - do the same search on MSN UK and that site doesn't show in the first 20 sites, then check on MSN Australia and you will see that all the top sites are from Australia and New Zealand (the .com and .co.uk sites are still there - but way down the list) - lastly check MSN Canada - top 'web pages' page is Canadian and is one which has shown nowhere in the top 50 on other MSN searches (bet they are happy). Finally, check all these findings against Inktomi pure search and you will find none marry up. This is a totally new algo.

This gives a major relevancy boost to local searchers without denying them the sites the INK deems important from the rest of the web. Taken in conjunction with the fall off of L$ sites and INK working on spam eradication - I think this has radically changed the quality of MSN SERPs.

I sort of touched on this at [webmasterworld.com...]

But it IS big news and already has had a dramatic effect on my referrals. On MSN UK I am coming up for many 2 word more generic phrases where I was finding it much harder previously to battle against US and Australian sites.

This is occuring on all searches. Test it out on your favorite phrases and see the different results across the World.

I like it though - just fine!

[egomaniac]

chris_f,

The reason some of the L$ sites that you see before you INK listing do not have L$ tracking codes to register the click is probably that some of these sites were in the L$ directory before L$ started charging for site reviews. These sites were in effect "grandfathered in".

[egomaniac]

namniboose,

I am seeing the same discrepancy that you are between the # of listings in L$ versus the number that show up in MSN. A search for one of my keywords on MSN now pulls up about 15 directory results. This same search used to pull up 287 directory results on MSN. Go over to L$ today, and I get over 300 L$ directory results.

I noticed a lag between when my listing reappeared last week in L$, and when it reappeared in MSN today. This lag could be part of the issue.

I am wondering if L$ is showing sites in its directory to make it look as if there is a lot, but only giving sites to MSN that have money in their accounts.

Anyone else noticing this?

[namniboose]

egomaniac, this isn't the case with the keywords I am looking at.

My listing is back in LookSmart for the next 10 days or so and it shows up on MSN at #2 for 'maui vacation rentals' but it doesn't show up for 'maui cottages' even though my account is active and my site used to be found on MSN (via LookSmart) for this keyword phrase.

This is because the LookSmart listings have been capped at 5 for this keyword.

[lawman]

I got an email from L$ telling me that a new billing period started and I'm back in their listings. I just checked search.msn - there are no L$ directory listings where once they existed. Someone give me a good reason to send L$ money.

lawman

[namniboose]

I got a similar email Lawman(and my listing wasn't back on).

I asked them if this was another of their broken promises and next I knew my listing was back on. I don't know if there was just a delay or whether my email precipitated things.

I really don't know what their game is.

[skibum]

It looks like something else weird is happening. One site that paid shows in the MSN directory for a domain name search but only in the Inktomi results for the desired keyword searches. It's got the L$ tracking code in the Ink searches though.

[egomaniac]

namniboose & lawman,

One thing I am pretty sure of is that there is a delay between when L$ switches on/off your listing, and when it shows up/disappears from MSN. Last month my listing stayed in MSN for about 5 days after it dropped out of L$. This month, it took 3-5 days after getting the email from L$ before it showed up in MSN.

I believe this is lag time due to something in the process that MSN uses to feed its database with the L$ directory. It just is not an immediate switchover.

This idea of a cap is interesting. As I said in my post above, I used to get 287 L$ results for one particular term on MSN, and today it gives 15 results. My site is on top during the days of the month when it is active in L$. But then I don't show up at all under other terms that I used to show up for.

[namniboose]

This 'capping' is definitely happening for all the keywords I have looked at.

Makes LookSmart significantly less important because I for one am now being found on page 1 of MSN via Inktomi (instead of page 5) so I'm not SO worried about the loss of my #2 listing via LookSmart (that is now there for only a third of the month!)

[egomaniac]

namniboose,

I don't think there is a specific "cap" on results. I think that MSN has implemented a threshold of which sites are relevant for a given keyword search, reducing the number of L$ results showing up in MSN.

Read the second post of this thread where I have outlined my thoughts in more detail: Looksmart Algo Changes & MSN Results [webmasterworld.com]

[namniboose]

Well, that is a 'cap'. The 'cap' obviously isn't a specific number so, that makes sense that it is a new algorithm of MSN's.

The missing results for the SERPS I am looking for are totally relevant - but maybe they don't have all the keywords in the title/description or something like that (you know how 'LookSmart' edits out the keywords!).

[egomaniac]

I searched for 2 two-word phrases that are contained in my description, but the words are not adjacent to each other. My site no longer shows up for these phrases in MSN, but will show up for them at L$. My site is relevant to these phrases, and it used to show up at MSN for these phrases, albeit far down in the results.

My guess is that my site's invisible L$ score for these phrases is below some new threshold.

This also makes sense to me because L$ wants us all to pay for re-reviews of our sites to get new keywords associated with our listing so we will show up where we want to.

[vitaplease]

Snippet from Looksmart's advert in the free Searchday newsletter from searchenginewatch.com.

7 out of 10 users click on core search results, not "Sponsored Links."..

they are referring to several search engines but also MSN.

Also they claim that Looksmart reaches 4 out of 5 internet users.

Very creative statistics - and just as trackable as their new PPC programme?

Anyone ever seen statistics on MSN click percentages per listing type? My feeling would be the sponsored listings get the majority within MSN.

[WindSun]

heh, I wondered why we were all of a sudden getting so many more hits from MSN.
For some reason we show up on the first page (sometimes in 1st place) almost any search for about 15 relevant keywords. For the normal search, the sponsors matches, and top 10...

[skibum]

It looks like M$N no longer uses partial matching for the L$ results. If the two words that make up your two (or more) keywod phrase are not together, you won't show up as a match.