Forum Moderators: not2easy
They say I have copied their "structure and layout" and if I do not remove two of my pages within 24 hours they will shut down my site and file a lawsuit seeking monetary damages.
First, my layout is similar only in that I also use bordered tables, the stucture is different (mine is in sub directories and theirs isn't), my actual content is at least 30% different because there is so much discrepancy in the available public data. Finally, the pages they insist I remove, contain data that is in the public domain - some of it mentioned in the Bible with the latest data coming from the early 1900's.
There are probably a lot of other sites that received a similar threat from these people since there are many sites with the same information organized in lists/charts.
I spent the night checking just to make sure I hadn't inadvertently copied something from their site when I was compiling the information. One of my pages has more content now than when it was archived in the waybackmachine on 7/20/1999 but the basic layout has not changed - still charts in tables.
The earliest page I can find for them with similar data has a waybackmachine archive date of 3/11/2000 and it contains just one chart, not a table of several charts as mine did in 1999.
(NOTE: There is another site that had (still does)almost identical content to mine, and theirs, but their pages have a waybackmachine archive date of 11/08/1996!), As far as I can tell from whois, they are not owned by the same company.
They did not follow the DMCA guidelines - no phone #, no address, no description of the copyrighted work claimed to have been infringed, and no "pains and penalties of perjury ....".
Because this is data in charts, is was easy to find what they are must be claiming is a copy of their "structure and layout".
I spent close to a week researching and compiling this material from old and new books and from the net when I added it to my site. Over the last 1 1/2 years I've added additional content, all of which is in the public domain, and which I rewrote from my notes taken from at least 30-40 resources.
One of my pages does have two sentences that contain some of the same words as one of their pages. Out of 590 words on my page, there are two sentences containing 2 words each that are similar to one paragraph on one of their pages. I also have a chart that includes some similar images, used to identify colors, as one of their charts does.
I called my hosting service but no one was available from legal so I'm waiting for a call back. And, of course, I'm really concerned about Google and all other engines.
These two pages are an integral part of my entire site so it isn't just a matter of taking them down for a few days until it is sorted out. I would have to do a major rewrite and change link structure to somewhere around 600-700 pages if the pages are removed.
Any suggestions what I should do?
Update: Just talked to my host and they have already contacted them by email claiming that I copied content and structure causing them search engine ranking. They are above me several places for one page and almost 300 places for the other page!
<added>If you want to you may sticky me the URL's of those pages that are supposed to be too identical</added>
You need real legal advice to be sure, but I think they are just trying to scare you. I'd wait to remove any pages until you talk to your hosting's legal person.
Was there any indication from the host what they intend to do?
They say they can't risk a suit and I do understand that so I will have to solve this with these people if they pursue it. I don't know a lawyer locally or otherwise that knows anything about the internet so I'm waiting for a friend to call back. He is a corporate systems consultant so I am hoping he may have at least a lead.
I called another webmaster in my niche who has almost the identical charts on her site but shhe did not receive email from them. I also found 33 other sites that have the same info in similar tables but I don't know any of them personally so don't want to call - at least yet.
These people didn't sent me their phone # , etc. but my host already received an initial email from them with a phone number, address and all other required DMCA info. They also told my host that I "copied" their content and layout and hurt their search engine listing causing them financial loss (I think that's what she said).
They are #2 or #3 and I'm around #7 for one page, they are #2 and I am #300 for the other. These aren't money words for me but they are an integral part of my entire site. Looking at their site, I assume they are money words to these people though.
Did I say that they link to me - and still do? and that about two years ago gave me an award for my site - and the same info was on there then just a little less of it?
Anyone know an attorney in Cincinnati?
I'm thinking if I can't get it resolved by Monday morning I will just put a "page(s) temporatily unavailable" up so I don't have to rewrite all the text and links right away.
Sent you a sticky.
I once had an attorney tell me that it had to me 70% different. If the information is in the public domain, reference the PD source. That keeps the PD data, and changes more on the page. Take some of the major words and run them through a thesaurus then rewrite the text around it to make sense.
If this devotion to optimization makes people CD people, then what has the world turned to?
It seems for them and many, that if they can't optimize better, than their competitors, that they will sue and bully them instead.
I hope people who take SEO for gospel and over react on supposed copyrights infrigements take a look at your case Nancy.
It's a wake up call and anybody can be come a victim or an accused, whether intended or not.
When I said my content was at least 30% different, I should have been clearer. What I actually meant, was that I have at least 30% more "information" about the subject than their similar pages (probably a lot more, I just haven't run any statistics on both sets of pages).
Found a lawyer, lost a lawyer, but then it was then after 5PM on Friday so too late to find another (even though someone here was kind enough to contact one in my behalf, it was then too late).
Used the waybackmachine to check when my pages were up and when theirs were. Unfortunately, waybackmachine has huge holes for my site in some years so I can't be sure whether I had some of these pages up first or the other site did. It is clear from waybackmachine though that I covered the subject in much greater detail at least a year earlier than the other site, but we have both added and updated many times over the last 4-5 years, so who was first with an update/add isn't clear from the waybackmachine.
So, I decided to use G to check snippets of text on other pages of my site that might be similar to any of theirs. I found a number of sentences that were actually very similar. Don't remember, now, where I found specific information because I compiled (and rewrote) the data starting back in 1999 using a vast set of resources, both online and off. Searching the snippets, I found many, many sites with the same snippets. Some, I know, copied my stuff because I remember struggling with some sentence structures to be sure it was different from the sources I used. However, in some, I'm not sure who copied who - or even if anyone did copy.
I decided to rewrite anything I had that was similar to anything they had. First, I wanted to avoid taking my pages down if my host couldn't/wouldn't back me up, and second, I wanted my pages to be different anyway.
Remember that this is all public domain information dating back centuries and although there are hundreds of books and hundreds of sites that cover this information, it is still from a limited set of data. So, making sure any sentence does not include the same adjective, adverb, etc. becomes a "thesaural project" (made that up :), sorry.
Since I had almost 100 pages about this specific subject, it was a long task just checking the snippets. Anywhere I found a similar snippet, I rewrote it on my pages (thank gawd for the online thesaurus!)
I spent the weekend searching snippets on G, researching additional sources (online and off), rewriting, and uploading new pages.
Called my host on Monday morning and spoke with their lawyer. She said it appeared I had complied by rewriting and unless they heard something more from the complaining site, they were satisfied and would not shut my site down.
Although I sure hadn’t planned to spend my weekend this way, I took advantage of the bullying to add more content while I was rewriting. Even though this is just info for my visitors, not a “money” subject for my style product, maybe it will improve my ranks and listings even more.
Since the waybackmachine has holes and hasn't updated my site since June 2003, I made a copy of my site, put it on CD, and sent it by registered mail to myself – just in case this ever comes up again.
[edited by: nancyb at 6:34 pm (utc) on Jan. 6, 2004]
I made a copy of my site, put it on CD, and sent it by registered mail to myself – just in case this ever comes up again.
This is known as the "Poor Man's Copyright" - it is completely invalid in any legal situation:
registermycopyright.com/FAQ.html
copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hsc
it is the registration that may cost money:
copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#cr
$30.00 US Dollars.
Just heard from my host and the other site is insisting they take my site down if I don't remove these pages. Host will give me until tomorrow close of business.
Evidently they are now asking for additional charts to be removed and if I understand which one, I had a chart up over a year before they did - based on waybackmachine.
This sucks....
Oh, and at the host lawyer's suggestion I tried to call this person. Phone message says "no on available, leave message" which I did and so far, they haven't called back.
[edited by: nancyb at 8:27 pm (utc) on Jan. 6, 2004]
I really wasn't expecting anyone to publicaly recommend a specific host as there are several threads on WebmasterWorld where members have expressed satisfaction with various hosts, it was just my frustration that let my fingers do the talking....
thanks,
But, that’s just me.
Well, just out of curiosity, have you tried to turn the tables. I mean, did you contavt their host with a C&D and ask them to remove the pages and point to the Waybackmachine as proof?
