Forum Moderators: not2easy
Here's how the spammers do it these days.
You are a genuine and real company that makes widgets. Your company is called Widget, one of your products is called Widget 3000, your domain is widget.com . Your widgets are available for sale at Amazon.com.
Here's how spam scam artists make money off you. They copy your products' descriptions from Amazon, probably thinking that it's safe to use. Then, they generate pages on their spam directory Web sites with the contents from the Amazon descriptions. They surround this new page with links from everybody that talks about Widget, making their page highly "relevant." Although the only guys they don't link to are the real McCoy - Widget.com. Then, they surround the page with Google Adsense ads. Because your copy is so thorough and precise, it will generate targeted ads for the page.
Whether they make a sale through the Affiliate network or through Adsense, they make a sale. However, the real sport in through Adsense.
They repeat this process for entire industries and optimize. This makes their Web site appear like an authority to Google, which will even rank their single widget page, above widget.com, even though you have hundreds of pages, and are the definitve source and inventor of all things related to widgets.
Apparently, this is acceptable to both Google and Amazon.
Rant over.
They copy your products' descriptions from Amazon, probably thinking that it's safe to use.
Amazon's XML interface gives them the product descriptions.
Sounds like your problem is with the Amazon affiliate model more than anything else, which permits affiliates to compete with you more or less. Perhaps you should abandon Amazon it if it's negatively impacting your online business.
You make the product, they sell it.
If you want to rank higher than they do, then put in some work instead of assuming that you have that automatic right. It shouldn't be that hard if you really are the authritative source, and you actually have a website worth linking to (most manufacturers do not).
Instead of swiping our trademark, they are taking a little more to cover their asses. But everything was created by us.
I'm pretty sure they couldn't care less about referring a sale to Amazon. They really care about generating targeted Google Adsense ads.
About our value as a site, I'm not gonna enter a debate about that. Before we made widgets, there were no widgets. When a 100 + page Web site created six years ago with real information gets shafted by a made for Adsense directory page, there is a problem. Playing the "please add a link to my site" game, will only fix the problem temporarily. Amazon and Google have work to do to correct this situation. Afterall, the merchant/manufacturer getting ripped off, is backbone of the entire system.
We're still waiting for a reply from Amazon to see what their policy is about this, before taking a decision concerning our relation with them. The messages we got so far were not encouraging.
... do they care, well probably they don't even realise its going on.
basically: data feeds in their various guises are one of the best sources of legitamate 'free' content available, just ripe for made for adsense type websites. hopefully the more people that do it, the more likely google is to develop their algo to respond to it and these sites will stop ranking so well.
Obviously you want google to rank you #1, but you want Google and Amazon to do all the work for you.
You've had your rant, and I hope it made you feel better. Now if really want to get back to #1, and keep that spot, get to work.
Just assume that Google doesn't care, Amazon doesn't care, Yahoo! doesn't care and MSN doesn't care. Who is left that cares about how *your* site is ranked?
If you have an issue with this site using your content, then do something about it. That is why there are copyright and trademark laws. But be absolutely sure that you want to go down that road. It might turn your product into a hot potato if you start suing Amazon affiliates.
They don't sell it. Affiliates don't sell, they refer.
True, they do refer, but if they can't refer before your site shows up they don't make the referral, get it?
If you showed up ahead of all the affiliates then you would sell it before they could ever refer a sale so what's in it for them? You dangle the carrot of the referral in front of them and then complain when they do all they can to make the referral. You can't have it both ways, you either want affiliates or you don't!
The better route is a true affiliate program (not the Amazon route) were you can put restrictions on how they use your trademark to stop this practice.
I may not be able to decide if I want to buy a particular book from the Amazon blurb, but an in depth review of that book an a hobby site with an affiliate link might just "sell" me on it.
We cannot opt out of the Amazon affiliate program for our products. We have zero control over who decides to add our products. All we can do at this point is end our relationship with Amazon.
Affiliates are cool. But this type of affiliate does not refer, they use our products, descriptions to generate Googgle Adsense ads.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they use duplicate contents we generated - and got spidered way before they existed.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they add no extra value or information on our products to customers.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they offer less information on our products than us.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they use skewed methods to rank before us.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us when all they have is one page ranking better than the hundreds that we have on widget.com.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they are more interested in earning profit from the Adsense advertisements generated by our products than promoting and encouraging others to buy our products.
We are the original widget. We always have the most updated information on our products. We have been doing this for years, and before us, there were no "widget."
BigDave, the site in questions had no reviews, no comments, nothing extra to entice a potential customer. All the contents were taken from our site through the Amazon affiliate program.
Was Amazon not supposed to provide your copyrighted works?
If they were not, I suggest that you file suit, and send takedown notices to all the affiliates that are using it.
If they were given permission, and the site is an affiliate, then get over it. Create some new content that you aren't providing to Amazon.
We cannot opt out of the Amazon affiliate program for our products. We have zero control over who decides to add our products. All we can do at this point is end our relationship with Amazon.
Well, there you go. You have a choice to make, don't you.
Affiliates are cool. But this type of affiliate does not refer, they use our products, descriptions to generate Google Adsense ads.
That sounds like an issue for Amazon to worry about. They are an affiliate so they get to use the affiliate feed.
If you don't like it, end your relationship with Amazon.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they use duplicate contents we generated - and got spidered way before they existed.
Please quote the section of your contract that states that. Any of the three contracts will do, Amazon, Affiliate, or Google.
If it is the Amazon contract, Amazon should drop them.
If it is the Affilite contract, the affiliate should immediately deoptimize their page.
If it is google, then tell me where to get a contract like that.
The last I checked, the court ruled that google gets to rank however they wish.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they add no extra value or information on our products to customers.
Where does it say that?
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they offer less information on our products than us.
Sometimes, it is handy to have a more consise version so you don't have to dig. But again, give us something that supports your statement.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they use skewed methods to rank before us.
It seems that Google disagrees with you.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us when all they have is one page ranking better than the hundreds that we have on widget.com.
But they got more links. They must be better. Google thinks they are.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they are more interested in earning profit from the Adsense advertisements generated by our products than promoting and encouraging others to buy our products.
My guess is that every single affiliate out there that is listing your product is FAR more interested in their profit than "promoting and encouraging others to buy our products".
You are being pretty selfish if you wantthem to be more concerned about you than feeding their kids.
We are the original widget. We always have the most updated information on our products. We have been doing this for years, and before us, there were no "widget."
That's great!
Will there be any "widgets" after your company goes belly up because you would rather gripe than actually do something?
Yeah, it kinda sucks to have that happen to you.
But you seem to think that the top position is somehow owed to you. That it comes along with your patent or trademark. That just ain't so.
If you want that top spot, and someone else has it, then do what it takes to get it.
All those things you listed, really should be working to your advantage. That doesn't mean that you automatically get that top spot, it just means that you should have an easier time getting it and keeping it.
But you don't even seem to be interested in putting in that limited amount of effort.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they use duplicate contents we generated - and got spidered way before they existed.Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they add no extra value or information on our products to customers.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they offer less information on our products than us.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they use skewed methods to rank before us.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us when all they have is one page ranking better than the hundreds that we have on widget.com.
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us if they are more interested in earning profit from the Adsense advertisements generated by our products than promoting and encouraging others to buy our products.
What a load of bollocks.
The merchant and the customer are the backbone from which everybody feeds. Without them, the system doesn't work. Screw the merchant or the customer, and you screw yourself.
Good affiliates understand that. Bad ones don't.
BigDave, you understand the situation pretty well, but you choose to play the smart ass card here.
Yes, I understand it well. No, I am not being a smartass.
I actually think you are being foolish with your attitude.
But I guess you've chosen to protect your fellow "noble" affiliates.
What fellow affiliates?
I believe you are making a bit of an assumption, and an incorrect one at that.
I run 7 websites right now, and none of them are affiliates, nor do they run adsense or any other ads. There is a cafepress store connected with one review site for the members, but that is it.
Just remember, without any merchants and manufacturers generating products, no affiliates would exist.
Nor would any manufactured product. That kinda makes it a dumb statement, doesn't it?
Mechant can exist without affiliates. Lack of respect and understanding for the merchants is a short term strategy that ends up costing more over the long run.
Now, isn't that a concern for the merchant then? And if it is a concern for the manufacturer, they can simply restrict an item from sale through affiliates. One of the items at my online store has such a restriction, and amazon does not sell it.
If affiliates were not of value, then why do so amy stores (both real world and online) use them?
And just to give you something to think about, many information sites would have to go offline if it were not for their affiliate income. They are sites with real content, not just sales pitches.
The merchant and the customer are the backbone from which everybody feeds. Without them, the system doesn't work. Screw the merchant or the customer, and you screw yourself.
Yeah, but I feel no sympathy for a merchant or manufacturer that doesn't even want to try and do the work necessary to draw the customers.
There are small hardware stores that close down when a Home Depot comes to town, and there are some that thrive, and even increase their business.
There will always be other merchants and other manufacturers. If you don't want to do what it takes to make it, then someone will take your place.
Good affiliates understand that. Bad ones don't.
Even the bad ones understand that. They just don't care.
What I am suggesting is that you simply deal with the facts.
1. You are not #1
2. You want to be #1
3. Your "not supposed to" list doesn't mean that it "is not".
4. You can only make your own decisions. You do not make decisions for the affiliate, Amazon or Google.
So, what can *you* do that can make the situation more to your liking?
One thing which I disagree with you, is that I have to use the same dirty tricks to get back in the top spot. I generate real contents and real products. I'm not about to change business model and become a spammer myself.
Still, Harry, I think maybe you're looking at this from the perspective of a webmaster (understable) and not from the perspective of the business.
First, you're probably going to have a hard time stopping the Aff sites, especially if they've compiled links from, as you say, relevant sources, around your content. In G, this is the golden goose. Unless you can out inbound them, they're likely to stay above you.
But for your business this may not be a bad thing.
Think about the route a sample user takes when they look for your "widgets." We'll assume this user is interested in buying your widget, otherwise it really doesn't matter whose page they land on, right? It's only actual potential customers we're concerned with.
So this searcher searches for widgets and gets a results page. They click on the number one site - this Aff site you mention. They read the sales copy (the Amazon stuff that you wrote) and then they do one of three things:
(1) they click through to Amazon and buy your widget.
(2) they click back to the SE and visit site number 2, which is YOU.
(3) they click one of the Adsense ads.
Options (1) and (2), all SE rank talk aside, work to your business's advantage. Either one is likely to result in a sale for you. Only option (3) does not put the buying customer where you want them.
Two out of three chances at a sale isn't bad, but you could make the situation work entirely to your favor by getting onto Adwords and bidding into the top results for the keywords being served to the Aff site (and you know what they are since you wrote the content!). If one or two of the displayed Adsense ads on the Aff site point to your domain, you've now made every scenario that the user could follow point toward YOU. In which case, the presence of the Aff site, even though they rank above you, does your actual business more good than if they didn't exist at all.
The fact that they are earning Adsense money off your content burns you as a webmaster, but if it ultimately helps you as a business, perhaps you'll find that it burns you a little less.
cEM
Affiliates are not supposed to rank before us
Harry, ya make me laugh. :)
I checked out your widget site and did a few searches and you seem to come up on top in come cases, not in other cases, mixed bag. You relentlessly harped on the Amazon affiliates that at least have potential payback but the site using your own PRESS releases from PRWeb that ranked above you just to get AdSense money didn't even refer your products to Amazon and you didn't seem to care about them. What the heck?
FYI, your site just isn't optimized properly, you don't need to "spam" anything, try re-reading all the proper practices of how to tell the search engine what the page is about and you'll fix the problem easily. Heck, the Amazon affiliates showed you how to do it, they put ONE PRODUCT PER PAGE with all the info, used H1s and H2s to identify the products well, they just did a better job of SEO pure and simple. The most amazing part is when you go to this guys home page it plainly says he's an "SEO consultancy" so maybe you should just hire the guy and let him do your site right?
You say I assumed things about you, but you assumed even more about me.
Well, you seemed to make even more assumptions in this message, while not paying attention to, or considering what I said.
On the other hand, you accuse me of making assumptions that I never made.
You assumed that I did nothing to fight the spammers and that all I did was rant.
Let's see, you started this thread with "This is a rant", so is it okay to at least assume that you are ranting here?
Then I said "If you want to rank higher than they do, then put in some work instead of assuming that you have that automatic right" and you replied with "Playing the [']please add a link to my site['] game, will only fix the problem temporarily. Amazon and Google have work to do to correct this situation."
I'm not sure how I am supposed to read that quote other than you are arguing that it is someone else's problem and they need to fix it for you.
You assume that I will let this situation go by and that all I will do is complain and that I refuse to do anything.
You have not given any indication otherwise, though you have had the opportunity.
So tell us, what are you going to do?
One thing which I disagree with you, is that I have to use the same dirty tricks to get back in the top spot.
When the hell did I say that?
Here is a choice quote from me, that sure doesn't seem to imply "dirty tricks":
All those things you listed, really should be working to your advantage. That doesn't mean that you automatically get that top spot, it just means that you should have an easier time getting it and keeping it.
I'm telling you to do *something*. Or more precisely, do something in the area that you have control over. You do not have control over Google, Amazon or the affiliate, so what does that leave you? Could it be *your own site*?
I generate real contents and real products. I'm not about to change business model and become a spammer myself.
Cool. If you go back and reread what I wrote with an open mind, you will realize that I never suggested such. You might also find some other useful bits in there.
How about asking yourself why those on-topic sites are linking to the affiliate instead of you?
If they are relevant, do you consider it spamming to try and get a link from them?
By the way, if the site in your profile is the one in question, clutering up some of your own "real content" pages with around 90% of the page real estate dedicated to adsense seems a little hypocritical to me.
If the Affliate uses Amazon's datafeed, the only text descriptions they receive are three customer-written reviews. The other data is all received in a kind of itemized list (ASIN, image, release date, retail price, Amazon price, cheapest used price, manufacturer, etc).
IncrediBILL, glad I could make you laugh! The search results have been changing the last few weeks. Sometimes I'm back on top, sometimes, I'm second, sometimes, I'm third. It's changing constantly.
Where I'm located, none of the guys who grabbed the PRWeb release rank anywhere before the sixth spot. So I did not bother about them. Besides, going after people using a press release defeats the purpose.
But you're right, I'm not a professional optimizer. That's not what I do. The affiliate you talked about is not the first one appearing first on my end of things. I don't use H1 or H2. I have always felt, perhaps wrongly, that they would be filtered down eventually in a future Allegra/Florida. And realistically, I never had to optimize for our company name in the past. It was a non issue.
Each product is already broken down into one individual page. Unlike the affiliates, I can't just show one product on the main page. Doesn't make any sense.
Saoi_jp, the affiliates all use contents available from Amazon written by us. I was not aware that they could not use contents from the Amazon site. I thought Amazon allowed that. Will have to investigate.
Differs depending on whether they use the datafeed or regular affiliate links. With regular affiliate links they're allowed to use only content written by Amazon. Amazon descriptions and reviews are okay, but no customer reviews or any content copyrighted by anyone other than Amazon. The guidelines correctly explain that Amazon doesn't own the rights to those things, so they can't grant rights to anyone else.
Rights are broader for datafeeds. As I understand it, the info in the datafeed is still on Amazon's server so the affiliate isn't actually "copying" it. But they still can't go to the Amazon site and copy stuff that's not on the feed.
