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Lots of people adding to favorites

Should I be worried?

         

superbird

1:36 pm on Jan 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I have a site that is just starting to get known about and AWStats is showing 32% adding to favourites which is very high compared to any of my other sites. Is it just because lots of people are seeing it for the first time or could there be anything nefarious going on? Is this measure even accurate anymore, considering lots of rss aggregators also download favicons?

onlineleben

1:50 pm on Jan 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



It is not only rss that downloads favicon, but also regualr browsers.
Favicon loads are no more an indicator of stickyness of a site.

cgrantski

2:03 pm on Jan 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



How does AWSTATS know a bookmarking event?

superbird

2:26 pm on Jan 14, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



cgrantski, from what I've read in this forum AWstats counts the amount of times the favicon is requested

MatthewHSE

2:43 am on Jan 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Is that all? Rats, I have an "Add to Favorites" link on most pages of my site and my stats show 75% adding to favorites. I thought that was actually what it meant. Too bad.

cgrantski

2:58 am on Jan 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Well, that's a pity, because AWStats should and could implement a filter to isolate IE browsers and they'd get a much better report on this terrific indicator of visitor engagement. With Firefox use skyrocketing, you'd expectr requests for favicon.ico to go up fast because FF requests that file all over the place.

bill

3:25 am on Jan 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Mozilla and Opera have been disproportionately pulling your favicon.ico file for years now. Now I've got bookmark/favorites managers, RSS feed readers, and other softwares who all go out by default and look for a site's favicon.ico file.

This hasn't been a reliable way to track people who bookmark your site for quite some time now. Just one visitor using FireFox running through your site will throw this figure off. Even limiting this to IE browsers may not be accurate because the user might be using a software (like an RSS reader with an IE based preview screen) that will pull your favicon.ico.

A more reliable indicator would be to track clicks to a bookmark this site link.

cgrantski

7:03 am on Jan 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Mozilla and Opera have always been small potatoes next to Firefox as it is today, or at least that's what I'm seeing in the logs I have access to. Maybe I work with a different user group that hasn't adopted Opera etc to the extent that they have Firefox, with all its writeupsin WSJ and so forth. Anyway I have to disagree that there's no longer a reliable way to record people bookmarking. It's not that hard with a short script to detect Firefox etc including when they are impersonating IE and filter them out, ending up with a pretty pure IE pool. RSS crawlers, even those based on IE, are also pretty easy to see either because of the way they mark (or blank out) the UA string or because of their obvious behavior. If something is grabbing favicons like crazy, then it's not a human bookmarker, or if it is a human, we don't care if they don't get counted if they're bookmarking everything in sight. We thought for about a day that we couldn't continue to track bookmarking, but with a little research it has worked out fine and in fact I think we're getting better numbers than before because Firefox and User Agent Switcher made us work at it a little harder.

bill

8:43 am on Jan 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



If you've got the time to filter out all the current and upcoming softwares just to figure out that a real version of IE is asking for the favicon.ico file, the more power to ya. Bookmarks don't really mean all that much anymore. I have thousands of bookmarks, but I hardly use any of them anymore. People will look for your site using a search engine more often than not. I'd argue that tracking this stat is of questionable value given the time, effort and imprecise nature of the stat itself.

superbird

9:09 am on Jan 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I don't bookmark much anymore either - I use Furl for the things I find interestinng and just have forums, adsense, webstats in my favourites.

Anyway, my high-bookmarking site has a higher proportion of Mac users and slightly more Mozilla browsers, whereas the users of the other one are less technologically savvy.

whoisgregg

9:22 am on Jan 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



On the mac side, Safari automatically fetches the favicon for every site you visit. It's not an indication of bookmarking.

cgrantski

8:46 pm on Jan 15, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



That's great Bill, thanks. Luckily we're only looking at whether somebody decides to bookmark a page rather than whether they actually use any of their bookmarks. Bookmarking is a great indicator for some tracking pros and useless to others of us, I guess. In predictive modeling exercises bookmarking predicts return visits and purchases really, really, really well, and people who habitually make thousands of bookmarks they never use are noise in the data that are part of everyday life in statistics. So we're sold on it and it has been no waste of time for us at all, thanks.

whoisgregg

12:44 am on Jan 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I've always ignored favicon requests (or at least the 404's I get until I remember to upload a favicon). I think ignoring favicon requests must be a great idea considering how angry cgrantski seems to be at bill for suggesting it? Did bill let out a secret or am I missing something?

people who habitually make thousands of bookmarks they never use are noise in the data

I should have a t-shirt made for me that announces how proud I am to be "noise in the data."

cgrantski

1:58 am on Jan 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



whoops, sorry. I did NOT mean to sound angry! I'm trying to make a case for this being a worthwhile metric for a lot of people. If anything, I guess I didn't think Bill should be brushing off the idea of tracking this based on just his opinions and habits, so I'm trying to bring it back on people's radar because it does have value and, further, it **can** be tracked. There are a lot of newbies here trying to get their heads around the whole tracking thing and they shouldn't be told something's worthless or impossible when it's not.

"Noise in the data" isn't pejorative, it's just a fact of life. My simple-minded point was that statistics is a game of generalities and not absolutes. The existence of exceptions (like people who don't use the bookmarks they make) doesn't imply that the statistic itself should be tossed out.

bill

5:39 am on Jan 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



No need to get bent out of shape here. I guess I should clarify that I was referring more to the effort of trying to track the accessing of the favicon.ico file as a metric. The original poster is using AWStats, not some heavily customized in-house professional system here. If you look at msg #:7 you'll see that I suggested a simpler and possibly more reliable alternative.

Although bookmarking could be a valuable stat to track, using a lot of these commonly available off the shelf products you're not going to see reliable results tracking favicon.ico as an indicator.

My other point was that the nature of bookmarking has changed. The importance of this user action is becoming less important. That's not just my personal opinion. When you see a lot of new webmasters coming in trying to use favicon.ico as a bookmarking metric it's a sign to me that they may be reading some outdated advice somewhere.

marcs

6:06 am on Jan 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



If memory serves, AW only considers favicon requests from certain browsers (at least the version we're using).

This is not to say their data is accurate, just that they are trying to make it more accurate.

cgrantski

6:55 pm on Jan 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Bill, please expand on the nature of bookmarking changing:

>> My other point was that the
>> nature of bookmarking has
>> changed. The importance of
>> this user action is becoming
>> less important. That's not
>> just my personal opinion.

Let's assume for a minute that the bookmarking event can be tracked correctly, via favicon or bookmark-this-page buttons or whatever. Given that, do you mean fewer people are bookmarking? Or when they bookmark, they're doing it for new and different reasons? Or more people are bookmarking? Or the same number of people are bookmarking, but doing it more/less times per visit? Something else?

dickbaker

10:14 pm on Jan 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I use AW Stats, and it shows just 2.4% of visitors bookmarking my site. Yet roughly 40% of visitors are repeat visitors.

It doesn't add up.

cgrantski

11:43 pm on Jan 16, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



As Bill has been saying, bookmarking is just one way people return to your site. I happen to think that a bookmark event is a great success indicator, particularly if you track bookmarking of individual products etc. But although it may predict return visits really well, that doesn't mean it's the main way of returning to a site. Using search engines undoubtedly dwarfs bookmark use. And people can be remembering your URL and typing it in. They can also be pulling up a browser history link or relying on auto-complete in the address window.

All of the above will account for returning visitors that show no referrer. If they do tend to have referrers, then repeat visitors are probably relying on links elsewhere including on portal pages that they've personalized with their favorite links i.e. your site.

whoisgregg

2:34 am on Jan 17, 2005 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



I think that the bookmarking event's value can be too dramatically affected by bringing attention to it (i.e., "Bookmark this page!") for it to carry any weight. Some user's may well misunderstand the bookmark, or know how to do it but don't know how to access it. (Don't laugh, I know users like this.)

As a general rule, I think the only way of tracking repeat visitors is to use IP or persistent cookies which (of course) have their own issues.

For a metric of general site popularity I prefer to keep track of webmail referrers (indication that people are emailing others to visit the site) and how many users take advantage of the site's "tell a friend" function.

suidas

2:25 am on Jan 18, 2005 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I use the following script to:

(1) present an "Add to your favorites" link on WIN IE; many scripts presume that IE is enough; actually only Windows IE allows the AddFavorite().
(2) track how many use it; when used it loads a graphic called /addfav.gif"

<script language="javascript">
function addFavorite()
{
var fav = new Image();
fav.src = "/addfav.gif";
window.external.AddFavorite(location.href, document.title);
}
if (navigator.appName == "Microsoft Internet Explorer" && navigator.appVersion >= "4.0" && navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf("mac") < 0)
{
document.write("¦ <a href='javascript:addFavorite();'>Add to your favorites</a>");
}
</script>