Forum Moderators: phranque
Not only does the Google toolbar block them [toolbar.google.com], the Yahoo! Companion has started offering a pop-up blocker [help.yahoo.com], and Microsoft has let it be known their next version of IE for XP will stop popups [news.com.com]. There are dozens of intelligent popup killers [popup-killer-review.com], some free, with over 90% accuracy in all situtions. Of course the best alternative browsers like Mozilla and Opera already have popup blockers built in.
It's a case of a good thing being ruined, but not just by a few. Next are DHTML ads, note that many of the intelligent pop-up blockers are starting to attack them as well and getting better at it all the time.
Possibly of some use is this interesting pop-up killer detector [popup-killer-review.com].
Also try this Norton Internet Security detector [popup-killer-review.com] (NIS is known for killing adsense ads).
It's a case of a good thing being ruined
Maybe for the advertiser, but surely you can see this as a great step forward for users?
Is it not now about getting required adverts on the page, where they should be (preferably with an anchor text link)?
TJ
Something to also think about and consider.
CompWorld
Another consideration is how much of these millions or billion dollars aching to be spent will flow in the direction of Yahoo, MSN, and Google?
But to return back to my point, are pop-ups even reliable as a website tool, not for ads but other functions? I mean if even just 2 out of 10 visitors have a problem using them because of non-intelligent blockers, suddenly we have to worry about losing customers/visitors.
[edited by: amznVibe at 4:07 pm (utc) on Nov. 13, 2003]
I take your point about getting larger images etc - but does that really need to go in a popup?
Personally, I think this is a design issue. Click on a small image and the large image and info appear in the existing browser window. If you have decent navigation, users shouldn't necessarily suffer.
TJ
As for where the money will go, I think we will see a comeback of the good old banner ad, at least to some extent.
Hopefully sooner than later.
All you can load in a pop up can also be loaded using a standard page that loads ON USER REQUEST / CLICK. There are only a few other things that annoy me the same as auto pop up windows (midi, dialers ...). I stopped visiting a lot of big sites just because they shoot lots of pup up's in my face. I hate this crap.
I understand that advertizers will miss this "feature". But they'd miss other "features" too, once they are dead (Gator, Spam Mail & Co.).
The web life would be much better without pop up's. Can't wait to see them dead.
... all imho.
Most people who don't use pop-up blockers yet are less tech-savvy people. They just have IE installed with default settings. So I guess the future of pop-ups will be heavily influenced by how MS will do default settings in their new browser.
If default = block none then nothing changes.
ElseIf default = block all then big trouble for all kinds of new windows.
ElseIf default = block only automatic then bad for advertisers & good for web programmers.
End If :)
I know earthlink heavily advertises their pop-up blocker [earthlink.net] as a free tool included with the service, and there are others like the netzero popup blocker [netzero.net].
Ironically, earthlink attempts to use a popup on their main page - too funny.
As a website creator (I'm no designer), I've never used popups for their many usability issues. And I've never regretted it.
Popups for advertising? It's like spawning a second 9" TV dropping it onto your living room flor to be blaring at full volume ads to you while your show's running. How could anybody ever think it's a good idea? Oh wait, many peoples idea of a "Good Idea" is measured by the money in their wallets...
SN
Trying to work out if I'll be a millionaire by then or not!
Mike
The visitor has spoken. Without them, you don't exist or have a reason to be.
What if in our store everyone who came in was greeted with a dozen people waving signs in their face - I mean IN THEIR FACE to the point that they had trouble seeing to even take a step forward.
That's exactly how many people feel.
Face it, the people have voted and for once, have won.
If a site HAS to use such tactics to survive, perhaps they don't deserve to survive.
You litter my desktop with crap and I won't be back, period.
I have also never ever and never will buy anything based on such tactics.
I'm an intelligent consumer. Those that buy from pop-ups are, well, less than that - easily talked into anything.
Give me hints, don't blast it in my face.
Pop-up ads are also seen by many as arrogance.
For once people should think like a consumer - THEN you will make and should make money. The others- they aren't working, they are stealing money, "money for nuttin'".
Earn it. No wonder X-genner and others have a bad reputation. They want money with no work attached. That's not the American way. In this case, the American way has acutally won.
On the other hand, I do use a "pop-up" or another window to show larger, detailed photos when someone clicks a thumnail.
There are many reasons to do this - one, you have the main page where all the order info, text, etc is still available. It simply makes sense - they close that new window and don't have to wait for the other window to reload - they are right back where they were with no waiting. It's IDEAL for the normal dial-up connection - the way most of the world still accesses the web.
That is the only drawback I see to cheap or lame pop-up blockers. However, I note that with Firebird and other "pop-up blockers" I've used, my new windows still open.
Shadows Papa
<a href="example.html" onClick="popUp(this.href); return false;">See example</a>
It pops open a window for people with JS enabled and authorized to open windows. For everyone else, it opens the link in the main window. Works very well for those "detailed profile" or "zoom in picture" or "watch video" popup windows; since switching to this style we've yet to receive a single complaint about either links not working or obtrusive popups.
A. Sites exist because of customers and visitors......What if in our store everyone who came in was greeted with a dozen people waving signs in their face - I mean IN THEIR FACE to the point that they had trouble seeing to even take a step forward. That's exactly how many people feel...
..If a site HAS to use such tactics to survive, perhaps they don't deserve to survive.
A bit over the top don't you think? In one way I agree, but you are considering only commercial sites. What about the many sites operated by single people who rely on the meagre pay from advertising to finince the site? Quality fan sites and many forums rely heavily on advertising, the move was made to pop ups because they have a 300% better click through rate than on page banner ads.
The "In your face" ads you are referring too would normally mean those associated with warez/porn sites where multiple full page adverts are spawned, in which case simply dont visit such sites! Those that show one normal sized ad are not so bad really. Oddly enough one of the worst and most unneeded offenders with pop-up ads are microsoft, with that stupid half screen popup with exiting hotmail.
I'm an intelligent consumer. Those that buy from pop-ups are, well, less than that - easily talked into anything.
So you've never bought anything from a TV/Radio/Newspaper ad then either huh? Same deal, if you see a product you would like for a good price then why not?
Pop-up ads are also seen by many as arrogance.
For once people should think like a consumer - THEN you will make and should make money. The others- they aren't working, they are stealing money, "money for nuttin'".
Earn it. No wonder X-genner and others have a bad reputation. They want money with no work attached. That's not the American way. In this case, the American way has acutally won.
I dont even know what the hell you are talking about here, I think you have gotten so far on your high horse you are deluding yourself. Stealing money? Arrogance? IT IS ADVERTISING YOU FOOL, nothing more, nothing less.
Popups for advertising? It's like spawning a second 9" TV dropping it onto your living room flor to be blaring at full volume ads to you while your show's running
How ridiculous! Most ads do not blare anything at full volume and they certainly do not cause you to miss anything in the content of the page you have loaded, they are more akin to the adverts ON YOUR TV itself, you didnt ask for it but it came anyway, the only difference is that you can get rid of a popup whenever you like instead of waiting 5 mins for your show to come back on.
On the other hand, I do use a "pop-up" or another window to show larger, detailed photos when someone clicks a thumnail....IDEAL for the normal dial-up connection - the way most of the world still accesses the web.
Uh Huh. IDEAL if you are browsing the web on a 486 machine that took 5 minutes to load the first IE window, now your going to make them load a second? Please that is the excuse of a poor designer, do you see amazon use a popup window for it's full size pics? No you dont, just create the page with proper navigation to return and there is no problem, in case you forgot the first page will be cached anyway on 99% of computers.
I wonder, if with the decline in online real estate to sell, if the competition/price of standard advertising will go up- supply and demand?
I would hope so but it is unlikely, may get more expensive yes but it is proven to be less than a third as effective as pop-ups and removing the pop-ups wont make it any more effective than it currently is, so why would companies pay more? Plus the ever expanding list of people selling advertising space will keep prices low. The prices that do go up will be with big sites like MSN, yahoo and google.
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I would like to be able to decide whether or not I view an ad of course, and I do. But way too many pop-up blockers are just plain unintelligent, either blocking indescriminately or only allowing through what you white-list. Trouble is how do you know it's avalable if its blocked in the first place? I have a blocker that allows me to select which ads I want to block. It's easy when one pops up i select the window and add it to the list of windows to block, but most blockers arent this smart.
And in closing do we really want to go back to the way things were with banner ads at the head of every page? Remembering that becasue of price falls there will be more and bigger than before. Those horring flashing images distracting you while you try to read text because you cannot simply click on that x box to get rid of them?
There is no easy answer to non-intrusive advertising, it is meant to be intrusive, if it isnt then it will not grab your attention. The only type that I find good are the very few that offer something innovative, those who have played the VRML table tennis game or the Mini Cooper challenge game will know what I mean. I fear if popups die all we will see is a large number of people who currently run very good sites on a small budget not being able to afford their server space any more.
>>Uh Huh. IDEAL if you are browsing the web on a 486 machine that took 5 minutes to load the first IE window, now your going to make them load a second? Please that is the excuse of a poor designer, <<
Ah, so you think I'm a poor designer? Hardly. I took the tips from thousands of similar sites that do the same. In fact, I got the idea after visiting dozens of competing sites that do the same. 486? Hardly. Just because you are perfect with a perfect computer and a T1 line doesn't mean the world is. Cache does help, but in many cases, when you are done with the "large view" and go back, it can take a bit of time. Clicking the "close this window" button means you are there instantly. Most of the world does indeed run dial-up, I know you don't so you don't have a clue what 2/3 of us go through when using the web.
Next, I happen to know some consumers, not tekkies, ordinary people who literally dropped their Internet use specifically because of all the pop-ups and other "stuff". In fact, I've gotten 2 free computers because of it!
>>The "In your face" ads you are referring too would normally mean those associated with warez/porn sites where multiple full page adverts are spawned, in which case simply dont visit such sites! <<
A. - I don't! B. nope - it's also "legit" sites, media sites, etc. Then some again are deceptive - a "window in a window" where if you click the wrong 'x' to close the box, you've actually clicked to their site! Deceptive! Those are the types I hate. Again, if the pop-ups were not all for very high-profit, high-markup things that I'd not buy anyway, I might not mind. If they were for real businesses with real products I wanted, it might be different. Simply put, a lot of people don't trust things associated with such ads. How do I say this? I've asked.
>>Quality fan sites and many forums rely heavily on advertising, the move was made to pop ups because they have a 300% better click through rate than on page banner ads. <<
And I say a lot of them have simply found a way to get rich quick, don't really NEED the income to support the site.
Bill's Antique Gas Engines is run FREE. No advertising. I got the server space free - all I want within reason. It's a hobby, informational site. Fan sites? How much time and money does it take anyway? Not as much as they make on the ads. Those ads are a way to make money. TRUE fans put up sites at their own expense. It doesn't cost that much for server space for a "fan" site.
Now don't get me wrong, a friend's site got so big so fast his provider kicked him off - too much traffic. He went to ads to support the more expensive dedicated server. However, they are for product related to the site - his advertisers are those I want to know about. I'm not interested in the games and stuff that the younger generation is interested in. Most pop-ups seem geared for young people, or for products I'm not so trustful of, especially over the Internet.
Put another way, I've never seen a pop-up, or even a banner ad for that matter, that was for anything I'd ever buy anyway. I'm not kidding. Maybe I've just hated them so much I've either blocked, or closed them so fast as to not pay attention.
Help here a bit - give me some examples of _legitimate_ business or product pop-ups I "may" be interested in? (Those that aren't for "refinance now, rates will never be lower" (do you know how sick I am of those?) Maybe you'll convince me............
It might also help if I knew what sort of money people rake in from those ads - my perception, and that of many, is that they can make a full living on just advertising. So, they aren't really working for it. Is that untrue?
>>Oddly enough one of the worst and most unneeded offenders with pop-up ads are microsoft, with that stupid half screen popup with exiting hotmail. <<
I knew we didn't disagree on everything! And they don't even need the money..... and they are in our face everyday anyway! Yikes!
Bills Antique Gas Engines may be run free (and if it is I would like to find out where you managed to nab free webspace with no advertising these days, though i'm expecting it to be something that you get from your ISP which means you do pay for it) but most sites arent that lucky. Plus when you get to the level of wanting to run server side scripts to opeate a forum or anything remotely approachign a dynamic content system then getting it free is very difficult.
From your second post I gather most of your gripes seem to come from the content of the ads themselves and not the popups. Unfortunately this will not change, in fact they are likely to be the last surviving adverts once all the legit ones have given up through lack of hits from their banners. Targeted ads would be ideal, showing you things that you would want to see and want to know about, but thats a ride thats been around many times already and no-ones getting on from the corporate side.
And for general information, I do have abroadband line at home, I also have dialup on 56k at my parents house, 28k at my uncles and a very bad 56k at the local community group that I work with regarding their IT (using said 486 Pcs, even a few 386s). Hence the reason I shy away from high-bandwidth and multiple browser (pop-ups) designs on sites. Bad designer or not, having popups takes extra resources from the user's machine. If people want to open your pictures in a new window they can do so easily enough with either shift or the right mouse buttton. If you design a site that does it for them then they can't suppress that and still see the picture. Think about that for a while.
someonewhocares.org/hosts/
Nope. My isp offers space, which I use for storage of other stuff, or transfer of files to friends. This site is hosted by a person who is also in the hobby and offers it to anyone who promises their site will be strictly "hobby" material. It's truly free. No strings.
Content, yes that does bother me - nothing but junk I'm never interested in, but the general concept of the pop-up is annoying as hell to someone who never buys from such ads anyway. The "hey, you will pay attention before I let you see the real content" is annoying. So are the tactics like telling people they won something because they are the lucky visitor. That's like Publishers Clearinghouse and they got sued and lost.
Like I say, pop-unders are somewhat annoying, but since they don't actually interfere with my progress until I'm done, they aren't near as irritating.
I now use Firebird. No popups. I don't mind ads on the site. I even sometimes pay attention to them. Again, not that I'd buy, unless it's for something I am looking for, I'm not an impulse buyer (unless the topic is antiques)
So I guess 'nuff on that, eh.
Shadows Papa
Text based ads that are served up not in (i)frames or javascript but with PHP/ASP/SSI includes that are seamless from the rest of the page. Nearly impossible to block unless there is a consistant click-tracker url used.
A new company has just launched new software that will block all Contextual and Search Text Ads from the users screens.
Not only will AdSense suffer but AdWords etc. The new company has targeted the main players such as Google, Overture etc. The screen shots show the search results without AdWords. Very bad news...
Shadows Papa - If this person is offering you free space then good luck to him, but then he is paying for it instead of you. Either way it is paid for by an individual, just seems that he can afford to do it without ads, most can't.
It is bad site design in general to have several windows all over because it destroys the context of your web site. It is even more pathetic trying to use it for an advertisement.
Any person that is in this forum has probably modified counteless computers host file to block ad content in addition to having popup window blockers.
Besides if you have a web designer that worked hard to developing a layout for a site, you should only have tastefull banner ad's or DHTML ad's. Otherwise you are destroying the site content and consistently with ugly annoying things which users will easliy justify as a cause to never return to your site again.
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David Smith
[edited by: DaveAtIFG at 5:46 am (utc) on Dec. 31, 2003]
[edit reason] Trimmed sig [/edit]
