Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from

Forum Moderators: coopster & jatar k

Message Too Old, No Replies

Need Suggestions Regaring Framework

cake php, symphony, radicore?

7:03 pm on Feb 17, 2007 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Sept 3, 2005
votes: 0

Hello to all,

I know that question that i am going to ask is asked several times here. I browse all those threads, but still i am confused. Please give your valuable suggestions and input.

I am working in php from last 3 years. And i never used any frame work or MVC pattern. Now i want to use any good framework for development of big projects. I search internet and found some soultions but very confused with whom i should go ahead. Solutions that i found are -

- Cake PHP Framework
- Symphony
- Radicore

Please help which one is better? and one more question should i go with any framework or just do coding in normal way using smarty template or any other template engine?

Sorry if my questions are confusing :(


1:00 am on Feb 19, 2007 (gmt 0)


WebmasterWorld Administrator coopster is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

joined:July 31, 2003
votes: 1

Your questions are not confusing, Vineet, and they are good questions. I have worked on some very very large projects and applications and never use frameworks myself. I don't use templates either, at least not in the "smarty" or other sense of the term.

What it all comes down to is your development style, your sense of understanding and comfort when it comes to using and applying templates and/or frameworks, etc. Personally, I am uncomfortable with both -- I find that learning a programming language written on top of a programming language just to accomplish my end goal is just too much. But, I have been programming since I was eleven years old too.

I feel your question is a good question, and you are correct in that it has been asked many times, by many people at the very same crossroads. I would encourage you to make your decisions based on what meets your needs, what makes the most sense to you. What works for one person may never apply to another, especially in the application development world. My best to you in your discovery process!

1:08 am on Feb 19, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:June 25, 2002
votes: 0

I've been doing some development work in Cake. For the most part I am happy with it. The community surrounding it is very active. Cake does more than just the MVC separation, it will also help with caching, security, and database abstraction.

I chose not to use Symphony because it seemed to carry a lot more structure than I wanted.

I also looked at Code Igniter which has many nice features.

11:53 am on Feb 19, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member henry0 is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

joined:Apr 19, 2003
votes: 2

I am with Coopster, why adding a new headache on the top of the first one :)

if you start by a good planning, structuring and DB tree, then you are good to go
and it's proudly yours 100%

example of headaches

I am in the process of incoporating CubeCart within a large application that I developped
synchronizing the sessions from CubeCart to the other application is enough of a hadache
I do not want envision the same plus dealing with a framework!

12:49 pm on Feb 19, 2007 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Sept 3, 2005
votes: 0

Thanks a lot to all for your input and suggestions. Thanks coopster for encouraging me.

I have developed some big applications in past in normal way that is php code was inculded in html files and using mixture of procedural and oop concepts.

But why i thought to shift on any frame work or template engine is, i always think that the way i am using of development is not perfect for professional programmer. I have worked on some open source projects like OSC, CRE, Joomla all have a standard code pattern, any body can easily understand and work on those code.

That's y i thought that i should now improve my coding style and use international standards. So i did little R&D and found that i should follow MVC concpet, template engines and such type of framwork.

Otherwise there is no problem in my 3 year of careear i have done many projects using my own style and clients are also happy :)

So can you PHP Guru's tell me what i should do in this condition?

And now days i am listning about ROR(ruby on rails). So i was confused a bit more. That every body is using such type of farmeworks etc and so i should prepare my self for compition and in age of these new technologies.

I need you all guys precious sugegstions. One more thing that i afraid of that i learn php using articles on net so is i am using perfect way of code? :(

Seems i am surroud in clouds of confusions and questions. :)

1:38 pm on Feb 19, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:Feb 21, 2005
votes: 0

Frameworks are almost a requirement in C++. I've been doing compiled programming since the early '80s, and couldn't imagine developing a large-scale compiled app without a framework.

However, my jaw drops when I see these huge AJAX frameworks developed in <choke>JavaScript</choke> and PHP.

PHP, I can understand, but JAVASCRIPT?

Here is why you don't want to develop massive frameworks in JavaScript:

function ThisIsAFunction(){document.write('This is functional output')};

When they say JavaScript is an interpreted language, they mean it. You'd be bananas to develop a framework from a language that behaves like that. I ROTFLMAO when I see these earnest discussions by JavaScript people about the intricacies of MVC patterns and whatnot. I've learned to keep JavaScript as light as possible.

PHP is a bit better, because it has a more robust architecture and caching, but it ain't that much better.

A framework is a set of layers that you insert between the execution engine and the instruction set. Every layer costs you. This is quintupled when the language is an interpreted language.

In CMS systems, a framework is basically required, because they are designed to be modded. If you learn the framework for a CMS, you can save a lot of time, as 90% of the code has been written, and all you need to do is learn the API.

I haven't been particularly attracted to unfocused frameworks like Cake, simply because I haven't found the need. This may be because I've developed extremely focused Web apps, and I have not wanted the inevitable overhead associated with a framework.

Very few frameworks are designed to be used in a "comb" architecture, where each "spoke" is independent. Most frameworks are designed as completely interrelated systems, in which you can't just take a part and use it independently. You usually have to have the entire system in your "hello world" program. Sort of a coded version of a Rube Goldberg better mousetrap.

All that being said, a framework may be your best bet. You always need to weigh the cost in time and manpower to develop a feature set versus the user experience and functional capabilities of the final product.

If your project is a good sized project, then you will almost certainly wind up with your own framework under it anyway. Except that your framework will be completely customized to your application and completely understood by your staff. It will just take a while to develop and debug it.

I often use other frameworks as inspiration and example, but avoid using the code itself.

Just my $0.02.

4:51 pm on Feb 20, 2007 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:June 25, 2002
votes: 0

I think I need to clarify my earlier post.

While I think cakePHP is pretty dern good, I would not use it for every website. In fact, for the majority of the kinds of websites WebmasterWorld readers build, I would not use any framework.

Frameworks do not make sense for brochure like sites, eCommerce sites with static pages and a third party cart integrated, etc. Frameworks make sense for application development.

The more complicated a project is, the more the number of developers, the longer the development occurs, etc. the more longterm utility you'll derive from a structured approach.

As another approach you can take an MVC approach without a codified framework

5:17 am on Feb 21, 2007 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Sept 3, 2005
votes: 0

Thanks for prompt reply and your valuable suggestions. Now my all confusions are clear.

Now advantage and disadvantage of using frame works are clear.
I think it is better to do code byself insetead of using any frame work.

Thanks a lot to all for your contribution.