Forum Moderators: martinibuster
Is Google unethical in its business practices and if so, what could and should be done about it?
First of all, let's define "ethical" as it's a pretty loose term. Here's one definition I came across which seemed applicable:
"Conforming to accepted standards of social or professional behavior."
While a lot of people would argue that Google, as a company, owes us nothing and can do what it wants -- that's not my question. I'm asking whether Google conforms to accepted standards of professional behavior and if not, what we could and should be doing about it.
So let's consider Google in this light and see if they conform to accepted standards of professional behavior.
A short while back Google canceled my Adsense contract because I used the phrase, "if you can't find what you're looking for, please check our other resources to the right." "To the right" generally referred to a number of resources on our site (featured content, etc.) but Google found an instance where only their ads were to the right. So according to the policy people, this was "excessive attention" and they canceled my account without any warning and a generic email.
Please understand, I freely admit that according to the strictest details of their terms of use I somehow violated their policies even if inadvertently. My issue is not whether or not I violated their policies -- it's how Google deals with those violations. In the real business world (not Google) if I'd violated the terms of use in some contract it probably would have been brought to my attention to fix the issue. Companies don't generally throw the baby out with the bath water simply because of a minor policy issue -- it's just not done as business relationships hold value for both sides. But it is with Google -- one minor offense, even if done inadvertently and not only is your contract canceled but they then refuse to speak with you. Pardon me but this is unprecedented in the business world. Companies do you simply cease to speak with -- they generally work through the problems. Can it be that Google believes it needs no one and so it callously throws away those relationships? If so that's a frightening thought.
So Google cuts off my account and refuses to acknowledge my emails. As best I can tell, this type of action is unprecedented in the traditional business world. As such, it does not follow generally accepted standards of ETHICAL business practice and this is only one example from Google -- I'm sure you can think of more.
So at what point do we as both humans and business partners of Google choose to no longer accept the unethical behavior of the Google gods? When do we say to Google, enough is enough, stop acting like a spoiled child and become a truly ethical business or none of us will do business with you? The problem is that one voice alone, even a million voices alone have zero effect on a giant company. From history, I see a few examples of changing the ways of unethical companies which are, the government, labor unions, trade associations and public boycotts.
Right now everyone is acting as individuals subject to the abuses of the Google gods. At what point do we realize that without us (meaning people who sell Adsense, people who buy Adwords and people who use Google), Google will fail. What will it take for us to band together so that our individual voices can finally be heard. Labor unions and trade associations have long used their collective voices to get the attention of big business and it works. Why not an association of internet advertisers for us?
My story has been told thousands of times by others. Tell me, when do we get smart enough to band together to create one voice loud enough to be heard? I think the only other entity I've seen act like this is DMOZ in how it fires editors.
I do applaud Google and especially Matt Cutts and team for finally ending it's silence with webmasters when it bans sites for SEO violations. There's now a reinclusion request and sometimes they even inform a webmaster when they ban their site. As Matt Cutts put it recently in an interview:
"We have to balance what we think is best for our users. We don't want to remove resources from our index longer than we need to it, especially if it's relatively high quality. But, at the same time we do want to have a clean index and protect the relevance of it."
Interesting -- he was talking here about people purposefully using hidden text to subvert the Google index and yet, he's trying to bring them back into the index. Well done Matt -- you and your team now get the ethical seal of approval. Now we'd appreciate it if you'd open up a bit more about the penalties many of us are experiencing which was also what 33% of users on your site asked for in a recent poll.
Okay, that's one department at Google who has stepped up to the plate and that's for people purposefully tried to subvert the index. So why is it that the Adsense department remains in the dark ages of the ethical business realm. Actually, that's not correct as I don't see a precedent for those types of unethical business practices. So the question more appropriately is, when will the Adsense department join the world of ethical businesses by conforming to accepted standards of professional behavior? Honestly, I'm appalled by the actions of the Adsense team and the share holders should be as well. You do not cancel a mutually beneficial relationship over an inadvertent mistake -- you realize the benefit of good business partnerships, correct the situation and move on.
When will Adsense wake up? Maybe only when we force them to.
- First off, you have the scale of business at hand confused, it's a mass market, with millions of advertisers and publishers, you cannot really expect a quality personal service every time unless you are riding first class. What we are seeing is few people doing their best effort, why don't they step it up and hire more staff? Economy of scale again.
- Second: In life and business mistakes happen, by you, by them, by everyone, accept that and you will live a happier longer life. How many good microbes are wasted in efforts to weed bad germs? There's an acceptable loss percentage.
- Third:
>What will it take for us to band together
>when do we get smart enough to band together
I honestly feel your pain, what happened to you is what all professional publishers worry about, but this is an internal business issue and decision inside Google, they are neither an employer, nor a retail store to boycott or pressure, simply a business partner, the smart ones you are talking about are the publishers that apply quality to their work, remain professional and persistent in their pursuit of maintaining profitable relationships, and above all diversify their revenue sources (which I failing to do so far), last but not least, smart people make lemonade when given lemons and move on to greener pastures if what they are perusing is unachievable, banned AdSense publishers banding together sounds like a very sad club, hardly anything good can come out of that.
I know none of the above can make you feel better, nothing anyone says will, perhaps if you reach deep inside and decide to turn this into a positive thing, push away the bitterness, make room for new ideas, and work harder on making them happen, good things will fall into place for you.
My revenue streams are diversified but this was 20% of my revenue. It was a good relationship for both of us and it's going to be difficult making lemonade out of this one.
As for banding together -- I didn't mean that only those who have been banned should come together but all internet advertisers. There are huge benefits in belonging to an organization which has the clout to pressure Google (or any other company) into acting more ethically, giving better revenue percentages, etc. A large organization could negotiate, individuals cannot unless you're a really large advertiser.
Someone in this forum recently said that Adsense is fair to smaller publishers. I beg to differ -- they treated me differently than they would have a large publisher.
For what it's worth...
I'm not sure he meant banned publishers banding together. I think Ducki was referring to webmasters in general to band together and form an organisation with which we could talk to Google with. [edit] I see he confirmed that before I had a chance to hit submit. :D
An organisation with millions of webmasters will have more impact than a single voice.
While I agree with some of what you said Hobbs, these 'good germs' Google are killing, often rely on google adsense as their livelihood, as do their family.
Because Google has such a strong hold on the market, it's not as simple as going to another partner.
While Google has such a strong hold on the market, they have no reason to listen, to care, they will do what they want, when they want.
My opinion is that Googles decisions are usually based around their own financial gain and ethics come second.
I'm asking whether Google conforms to accepted standards of professional behavior and if not, what we could and should be doing about it.
I am almost certain that they DO NOT conform to accepted standards of professional behaviour. They have set up their business (and yes, that includes contracts and policies) in a way to exploit the web as they see fit.
Some examples:
- They start to scan whole book libraries, regardless of works being copyright protected or not. Only when people (writers, publishers) started to complain, they slowly pulled back from their original plans.
- They shaped Adsense in a way that basically no publisher can expect/demand anything from Google. They can pay you pennies, they can pay you dollars, they can terminate your contract, and they do not need to present any proof for their actions. Legal? Sure. But not my understanding of ethical behaviour.
- Same on the Adwords side: they can raise minimum bids overnight, with no need to explain anything. You can't pay your campaign any longer? Sorry, buddy, but there's the door. Legal? Sure. But not my understanding of ethical behaviour.
- They provide shelter for copyright infringers (YouTube) and other scum (Orkut in Brazil) and can only be convinced by lawsuits to change their behaviour.
So, is Google an unethical company? 120% if you ask me. I would not be surprised to hear a lie while they look me straight in the face.
But can Google be blaimed? No, WE (and that is: WE as publishers, and WE as users) have to blame ourselves. WE made them as powerful and as big as they are. So in a way we got what we wanted, and we got what we deserved. Apparently.
Now, if only Microsoft or Yahoo! or anyone else could finally get their act together and build a system that can compete with Google. But the competitors are paralyzed by Google's success, trying to copy Google's approach while in reality new ways need to be found.
Can anything be done against Google? Sure. Use a competing search engine. Pull Adsense from your sites. Stop your Adwords campaigns. Stop using Gmail, Blogger, Maps, Orkut, News, and what have you. Blog about it. Convince your users to do the same.
Ah, and now I run very very fast to avoid the usual flames of the fanboyz.
Standard Disclaimer: I know that I can and should leave Adsense at any time when I am not satisfied. I know that Google does not owe me anything. I know that I do have no contractual rights to ask for more information. I know I should be happy to earn money for Google. I know that I am too small to even be heard by mighty G. I know that Google can basically do no evil.
With regard to their rules for Adsense and the treatment of their advertising "partners" the answer has to be a resounding yes. There is no precedent anywhere for the way they operate.
Google should have the right to unequivocally ban anyone who blatantly contravenes their Adsense rules but there should be some comeback and dialog when there are any doubts. Anyone can make a mistake.
Luckily Google wrote to me, informed me of the problem, they did an 'investigation' and within a few days my account was sorted.
Though I know many people are banned, never receive an explanation and their emails are never returned.
That is NOT a partnership.
Once a competitor gets their act together and offers a real viable alternative, then things will probably 'loosen up' a bit. Right now it's google's bat, ball, glove, bases, ballfield, candy concessions etc. If you want to play, you have to play by their rules. Maybe the folks at yahoo or msn will come up with something worthwhile.
cg.
It honestly cracked me up that Google knew exactly what my site and every page was about but the Adsense ads were so far off subject wise. Pathetic. You'd think they could match the ads to my content. Heck, just use my title tags guys. I even tried using their hint tags and it still didn't help.
Anyone, at this point, could do better -- or one would hope!
It would take a huge company like msn or yahoo to do better. Googles infrastructure is just too big.
I think once Google face real competition and have to battle to keep both advertisers and publishers, we'll get a much better deal. Until then we're at their mercy.
Sent you a PM Ducki.
WE made them as powerful and as big as they are
What?
Zett, while you will find me to be the last person that can be called a conformist or 'fanboyz' as you put it, your own disclaimer totally contradicts what you wrote above it, I find that follow the revolution or you are not smart, or the do as I say or you are a conformist distracting from the real issue, which is better business practices, not 'unethical' for we can argue about ethics till the cows come home.
Google was not made by us surfers or webmasters, they owe no one but their own business smarts for their success, saying Yahoo & MSN were "paralyzed by Google's success" is far from the truth, they were and still are being outsmarted, simple.
If you still believe that ethics is the issue not improving business practices to include smaller publishers, you are heading towards a brick wall.
At least we are all in agreement that more search engines that work, and ad networks that pay well will be a healthy change in everybody's favor.
And, no, I'm not a large publisher.
I'm a realist.
If Google appears unethical it's because it's been burned by way too many unethical small publishers in the past.
I think few here would consider your offense to be lifetime ban-worthy, so it certainly doesn't mean that you should NOT be heard. You should. But it may not be financially feasible for Google.
It is probably the best reason why us small fry need to be as white hat as possible, because you may never get a chance to make a second impression when Big G scrolls through your site.
which is better business practices, not 'unethical' for we can argue about ethics till the cows come home
Agree about ethics and the cows. Seriously, my problem is that there is virtually no working alternative. Neither Yahoo! nor MSN have an ad program targeted at a truly international audience. Also, these programs are not available to international publishers AFAIK. This lack of competition does indeed lock me in to a certain degree. I know there are other options, but I admit that none of these "work" as smoothly as Adsense. That's the only reason why I am still with Adsense.
Google was not made by us surfers or webmasters
Bah. Sure the growth of the service was supported by surfers and webmasters. Do you remember 1999/2000 when there suddenly was a new search engine with a funny name that was "cool"? That delivered upon their promises? At that time, Google was promoted through viral marketing alone. They never spent a dime on traditional marketing. They just grew by word-of-mouth. (And yes, I agree that this was smart. Noone ever has said that Google is stupid.) At that time, journalists and surfers and webmasters promoted Google beyond belief. Just because it was a cool service. And today? Google is omnipresent, but noone promotes the service without hindsight any longer.
Yahoo & MSN were "paralyzed by Google's success" is far from the truth
But they act as if they were paralyzed. (BTW, if my memory serves me right, Yahoo! had Google SERPs in the past. Go figure.)
If you still believe that ethics is the issue not improving business practices to include smaller publishers, you are heading towards a brick wall
No brick wall in sight here. Truth is, I really would like to see better business practices from Google. I do not care about ethics (a murky word anyway). I would like to be treated as a valuable partner, and I do not want to be kept in the dark. That's all.
Before anything, it's a good idea to read Google's AdSense Policies [google.com] and their Terms and Conditions [google.com].
I've been Reinstated - Adsense has let me Back in
A member recounts their experience at being removed from the AdSense program, but subesequently reinstated when she proved that she was not responsible for false clicks.
[webmasterworld.com...]
What to Do When You are Kicked Out of Adsense
A long step-by-action-step tutorial on your recourse when booted from AdSense
[webmasterworld.com...]
There's not much we can do here to diagnose why you were banned. If you read the above posts you should get a good idea of how to proceed in getting reinstated if you feel you did not break any rules. And make sure you know the rules. ;)
Good luck.
