Forum Moderators: martinibuster
Stop being one sided and non-objective and start siding with publishers - give them benefit of the doubt. Many honest publishers were banned for many dubious and vague reasons. I heard that some people were banned second day after they signed up for Google.
Google's treatment of publishers should change (aka: improve) in the following 4 major ways:
1. There should be formal appeal process readily available to publishers who were banned from Adsense. It is unacceptable for Google to simply ignore their email requests for investigation. There should be formal process of appeal in place, not just "adsense-support@google.com".
2. Banner publishers should be paid earnings that were legally 'generated'. Example, if publishers earns $100 in valid clicks, and has 5 'invalid' clicks, then he/she should not be paid for 5 invalid clicks, but should be paid for all valid clicks. This is a basic principle of fairness.
3. Accidental invalid clicks (the one's that publishers accidentally make while updating their respective websites) should automatically be filtered (aka: cancelled) and publishers should not be penalized or baned as a result.
4. There should be more rigorous process in accepting new applicants into Adsense. Example: scrap sites, automatically generated sites, Made4Adsense sites, and such SHOULD NEVER be accepted into Adsense in the first place.
5. Smart pricing should be cancelled. I don't see how smart pricing benefits publishers, nor do I see how it benefits advertisers, and in fact, by Google's own admission - Google actually loses money by smartpricing formula. And many (quality) publishers on this forum have voiced their disgust at smart pricing, because they lose money. You can't do advertising/publishing on cheap. Publishers need to pay big money for their fact dedicated servers to keep their multi-million-visitor-hits websites running. Nothing comes cheap, and advertisers either have to realize that or come up with better plan of action (I am open for suggestions).
There should be formal appeal process readily available to publishers who were banned from Adsense. It is unacceptable for Google to simply ignore their email requests for investigation. There should be formal process of appeal in place, not just "adsense-support@google.com".
If you go back through the forums, there have been people who were reinstated, so obviously there is some kind of process. Honestly though, almost everybody who is banned deserved it (if not everybody) - way too many people come in here complaining they were banned for no reason, and then they'll trip themselves up in that same thread, or they'll have a previous post/thread discussing borderline behaviors.
Banner publishers should be paid earnings that were legally 'generated'. Example, if publishers earns $100 in valid clicks, and has 5 'invalid' clicks, then he/she should not be paid for 5 invalid clicks, but should be paid for all valid clicks. This is a basic principle of fairness.If you have invalid clicks (either you doing it yourself, or somebody doing a click-type attack), you don't get paid for them - they are filtered.Accidental invalid clicks (the one's that publishers accidentally make while updating their respective websites) should automatically be filtered (aka: cancelled) and publishers should not be penalized or baned as a result.
Most of us have accidently clicked on our own ads at some point or another (it's almost something you have to do as an Adsense newbie!). A check of stats will show an invalid click and no revenue for it. Of course, it's always good to send a follow-up email to Google saying that you accidently clicked your own ad.
There should be more rigorous process in accepting new applicants into Adsense. Example: scrap sites, automatically generated sites, Made4Adsense sites, and such SHOULD NEVER be accepted into Adsense in the first place.
The problem is you can put adsense on any site. Now if you want to do like Amazon did (I'm not sure if they still do), they would manually review your website first, and you had a seperate ID for each website (although you still only had one account).
Smartpricing...don't get me started :)
I would like a manul-style contextual targeting, even if it's not as fancy as Chitika, but somewhere near Yahoo. Google targets very well, but every now and then one message or page on my website will trip Google up slightly, and I have to go in and add a few site-relevant words.
As for casual clicks I do not know of anyone banned for this. Think this is just misunderstood by some, <have no idea what the threshold is for casual>
For many a publisher (and stock holder!), that's precisely how Google is perceived. For some "odd reason," ($), they're not that bothered by it either (at least not enough to quit).
If Google is as bad as you keep asserting, why do you stay with the program? There are lots of other options, with companies that MUST be better to work with than Google....
toldan, I've noticed from your posts here and elsewhere that you are quick to assume the worst. Maybe that's just your temperment. To me, you come across as one-sided!
If Google is as bad as you keep asserting, why do you stay with the program? There are lots of other options, with companies that MUST be better to work with than Google....
I stay with the program because my account is in good standing and both Google and myself benefit from this program. My critique of Google does not mean that I am anti-Google, it's just that I hate one-sidedness that can be visible on this board every time someone gets banned. Refrain from accusing people of being automatic cheaters and such - you simply don't know who is right. True, some Adsensers have been reinstanted, because Google apparently acknowledged: "Hey, we made mistake, we banned wrong person". You see, Google makes errors too.
I thought it is only in India where people starts worshipping anyone who is just Big / Rich & Famous, but we can see this kind of mentality everywhere. We are still slave by nature.
I am running google ads for more than 2 years and everything is quite good but I am not worshipping google. the problem is, there is no Good ad solution than google and I hope in future somebody will come with better idea than google and then we will have more "Good" options.
We keep justifying google for everything, i can see this in this forum. I dont know why people here are very cautious about google, why they can not speak even if they feel so. It seems like google is god and reading each and every thred of your's. is it so?
Few months back google were giving me more than 10 times more CTR than present month and if you complain, they have canned answers for this, "you click counts depends on so many factors and all".. My traffic is same as it was 3 months before.. from same country.. almost from same locations.. but CRT is 10 times less.. i am not only suffering from this.. almost all of my friends have this complain. but even if yu raise this question here.. people used to critisise your content and traffic. We have same content and same traffic, and there is n fault from our side.. but as you guys say.. Google is your new God, so he can do anything anytime.
We are just hopeing for some better solution than google. There is no doubt that Google's management is better than any ad serving compnay and they are the one whom you can trust more than any other copmany. But.. this is like Google is an One Eyed Kind among bliend people..
We have to stick with google (untill we have better solution).. no matter if sometimes they suck your blood.
I am just not like most of you who automatically accuse banned publishers for being cheaters.
1: No one should ever call another member names.
2: "I've been banned" posts become useless precisely because some members insist on calling the OP names. As long as people insist on lynching instead of helping the OP, there will not be much if any value in those posts at all.
Throwing Stones at Banned Members
Toning down the name calling is a first step in rehabilitating the "I've been banned" posts. But we can't do a site review, so we are limited to asking the usual repetitive questions (did your relatives click ads? Did you encourage people to click ads? etc.)
Nevertheless, if we are interested in helping, that is precisely what we should be doing.
3: I really think we need to evaluate how we respond to the "I'm Banned" posts if those posts are ever going to be helpful to anyone. I agree that the tone some members take to the OPs of those posts are a bit harsh. Regardless if they are guilty or not, the TOS doesn't give an exception to any member to be rude to another member.
Here's a great post that demonstrates ably that Google's treatment of publishers does work well if you are organized (and innocent):
What to do when you're kicked out of Adsense
A primer to get you back in and other tips
[webmasterworld.com...]
Throwing Stones at Banned Members
Throwing stones at banned publishers is wrong and I agree with you there. Harsh language, name calling, and justifying everything that Google does is unfair, one-sided, and poisons attempts for a intelectual debate.
We keep justifying google for everything, i can see this in this forum. I dont know why people here are very cautious about google, why they can not speak even if they feel so. It seems like google is god and reading each and every thred of your's. is it so?
That's exactly the point I am making. Constant justifications for Google's behavior and lack of critique for Google Adsense leads absolutely nowhere, dead end.
The reason is a lot of us have had adsense for a while and have never had any problems. Any time any of us have felt sorry for somebody and looked into the situation it turns out the person was doing something very bad.
For one, I never had any problems with Adsense. My experience has been nothing but positive. But that does not mean that the program is flawless.
I agree with some of your points, but think your definition of 'invalid clicks' is too narrow. If a publisher generates clicks through some scheme banned by TOS, how can Google possibly know how many of his clicks are valid?
Google is $80 billion worth company and if they are not able to distinguish between valid and invalid clicks, then I better pull out my advertising dollars from Adwords. I can reasure you that they can distinguish valid from invalid clicks, that's the basic security principle of Adsense.
If you go back through the forums, there have been people who were reinstated, so obviously there is some kind of process.
"Some kind of process" is not good enough. There should be formal appeal process. Many banned publishers don't even get reply from Google when they attempt to contact Google and offer their unconditional co-operation regarding invalid clicks.
For many a publisher (and stock holder!), that's precisely how Google is perceived. For some "odd reason," ($), they're not that bothered by it either (at least not enough to quit).
They will not quit, but if they don't improve certain flaws in their business practice, they will lose in the long term. Remember what happened to Altavista?
But I can see why many people here are sceptical to the "I've been banned for no reason" threads. Time and time again, regular posters have looked at other posts on WW World and found admissions of blatant TOS breaches, or done other detective work that's uncovered the true reason for the ban. We have also seen people here be reinstated when Google do make mistakes.
Do they make mistakes? Yes.
Should there be a formal appeals procedure? Actually, I would agree with you that there should be a more public procedure than falling on their mercy to the general address, but as others have said the system clearly does work, and in my experience Adsense try to work with publishers to get them to comply before banning them anyway.
In the case of blatant or organised click fraud that many of the "I've been banned" posters do, then it's extremely difficult to have any sympathy for them.
In the case of claims of "Didn't understand the TOS", it's also difficult to have any sympathy as they are very concise, and clearly written. I know they are often intentionally open to interpretation, but we will help here, and Google will always assist if you email them.
I don't believe banned publishers should recieve money - much of it would have been invalid clicks anyway! It currently might act as a dis-incentive to click fraud.
I agree that there should be more rigorous control of what sites adsense is allowed on - including vetting each and every site for pre-approved publishers.
Like it or not, smart pricing is something we have to live with. There are huge debates about the effectiveness of smart pricing, and I don't think going there would help in this thread! I would say that I prefer smart pricing to Chitika's idea of auditing clicks at the end of the month. You get your hopes up as to what your earnings are, then six weeks later they get cut in half. I honestly prefer to have this done "On the fly" if it has to happen at all.
Where I think Google need to improve is with their responses to emails.
1. No more canned responses please! Very often the person sending them has failed to understand the question, or even read the email properly (time constraints?) and the response often makes no sense and is unhelpful.
2. When we report TOS violations, ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I no longer bother to report violators as they simply don't seem to ban them, never respond to emails about violators, and give the impression of not caring. This needs work Google!
Bottom line is that Adsense earns me 20-30 times my Fastcklick earnings - and I consider that I do reasonable well with fastclick. This is not unusual - many publishers here have the same experience.
There are a lot of people here that are happy to fight Google's corner for them because of the fact they have earnings beyond their wildest dreams from their websites. I agree that it tends to become a religious worship experience for some, and that's as unhelpful as the "I've been banned" threads IMHO.
By "they're," I was referring to the publishers, not Google...
oh well.
I'll chime in on Jan 3rd when the euphoria has worn off.
Why below-the-belt attack on Indian's?
Your assertion is not correct.
Google is $80 billion worth company and if they are not able to distinguish between valid and invalid clicks, then I better pull out my advertising dollars from Adwords. I can reasure you that they can distinguish valid from invalid clicks, that's the basic security principle of Adsense.
I'm also confident that they can detect invalid click patterns, or clicks from a certain ip, computer, etc. But they cannot distinguish valid from invalid clicks on every occasion. They're engineers, not psychics.
Even Wal-Mart loses money to shoplifters.
someone (aka the wise) once said:
"You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it"
people like toldan asking Google weekly about their account's good standing and expecting a personalized reply
People don't actually do this do they?
"Some kind of process" is not good enough. There should be formal appeal process.
The contract between Google and the publisher allows either party to terminate the relationship at any time, for any reason. Are you suggesting that the contract should be changed so that Google and publishers would find it more difficult to pull the plug. (That would be only fair, but it probably wouldn't sit well with unhappy publishers who think they can make more money with YPN or other networks and aren't prepared to give Google the benefit of the doubt.)
Many banned publishers don't even get reply from Google when they attempt to contact Google and offer their unconditional co-operation regarding invalid clicks.
You haven't provided evidence to support that claim, but even if you're correct, so what? Google is under no obligation to be nice to publishers who have been caught cheating advertisers. And let's get real here: Anyone who's been reading the "I've been banned" threads for a year or more has witnessed case after case of "innocent" banned publishers who have turned out to be TOS violators. (In some cases, the violators have even been dumb enough to admit their cheating in other threads.)
Google actually loses money by smartpricing formula.
? How? Their revenues are less than their costs? I would be surprised if that is true.
When we report TOS violations, ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I no longer bother to report violators as they simply don't seem to ban them, never respond to emails about violators, and give the impression of not caring. This needs work Google!
Yes, it is depressing when we try to be good citizens of the web and report violators only to see nothing happen.
4. There should be more rigorous process in accepting new applicants into Adsense. Example: scrap sites, automatically generated sites, Made4Adsense sites, and such SHOULD NEVER be accepted into Adsense in the first place.
Toldan, if Google did do this, I bet it would decrease a lot of these "I've been banned threads". I feel that a lot of the MFAs are the ones with the spurious claims of being banned for invalid clicks.
"You cannot slander human nature; it is worse than words can paint it"
Google is a business, and any business, public or private, institutes programs and policies that maximize their benefit for themselves. Just like an employer will pay you just enough to keep you from leaving, Google will run AdSense to maximize their own revenue. Part of this equation is keeping a large enough percentage of their customers (publishers and advertisers) happy. They accept that some won't be happy with the program, and some won't be worth the expense to even try to keep around. A small-time publisher with potentially shady practices isn't worth their time and money to monitor their site, investigate their claims, or answer their e-mails. They will treat a site with 10 million page views a week a lot differently that one with 10,000 page views a week. That's business, folks. Any intelligent corporation will work harder to keep their most important customers happy.
This is not an entitlement program, it's a business relationship. Can Google improve its communication with publishers? Certainly. Do they owe each and every publisher unlimited attention when they're accused of misbehavior? I wouldn't if I was in their shoes.
That would be Charles Haddon Spurgeon, a nineteenth century UK preacher.
That would be Charles Haddon Spurgeon, a nineteenth century UK preacher.
I wouldn't be surprised if dear old Oscar Wilde appropriated it at some point!
