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"Best Widgets" ranking, but not "Best Widget"

         

hasek747

5:40 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Hi guys,

Have a 3 year old website. One of the more important landing pages has been consistently ranking #1 for "best widgets". However, it is nowhere to be found for "Best widget". Any ideas why this might happen to a page? It has been my experience so far that when ranking high for the plural or singular form, the other form is always either in the exact same spot or very close to it. The singular version has been out of the serps for around 7 weeks.

EDIT: interestingly, page ranks just fine (#1) for "best green widget" , "best blue widget" etc. (singular). Just not "Best Widget".

Thanks!

tangor

9:11 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Me? I'd be happy with #1 and not split hairs that fine, but yes, that does seem a bit strange. :)

hasek747

9:33 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Problem is most searches are for the singular form, not the plural :(

Robert Charlton

9:48 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



interestingly, page ranks just fine (#1) for "best green widget" , "best blue widget" etc. (singular). Just not "Best Widget".
hasek747, just to be sure that we're clear about this... the two word version of the phrase, "best widget", is more general and therefore more competitive than the three word phrases you've posted. This is very probably true of the plural two-word phrase as well. But we can't tell much from your example... except that it probably should be expected. It's not odd at all.

What's the situation with singular and plural in terms of inbound anchor text and text on the page?

Conceivably, if you had control of your inbound links... and I don't know whether that's the case... you might have pushed too hard on the singular anchor text, and that might have caused a problem. If that's the case, I'd simply leave it alone for a while.

Take a look at this discussion for why leaving it alone might be a good idea...

Google's Rank Modifying Patent for Spam Detection
Aug 18, 2012
https://www.webmasterworld.com/google/4486158.htm [webmasterworld.com]

(Also worth noting that we don't know that the above patent has been implemented, but examples I've seen suggest that it has been).

Robert Charlton

9:50 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Problem is most searches are for the singular form, not the plural
Our posts overlapped, but IMO this explains a lot. The degree of competition affects all comparative rankings.

lucy24

9:55 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



It's tricky without knowing what word "widget" represents-- which, of course, you're not allowed to say. Most of the time, "widgets" is just a variant of "widget". But some words legitimately end in "s" and may have no relation to the s-less form. If so, each form would be subject to separate indexing.

In Webmaster Tools / Search Console, under Keywords*, are "widget" and "widgets" listed together?


* Don't know where the tab is these days; I kinda lost heart after discovering that "its" counts as a keyword, even if you are not selling San Francisco-based ice cream treats. And the whole thing becomes hopeless when your content includes languages Google doesn't know.

dipper

10:18 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



- do you use "widget" in your page title, in page headings (h1, h2, h3 etc), and page copy?
- are you linked to on terms using "widget"?

hasek747

10:24 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Thanks for chiming in everyone. I'll answer all (hoepfully) questions asked:

1) Thing is, the difference between "Best Widgets" and "Best Widget" as far as the results on page #1 go are extremely small; it's basically the same pages slightly shuffled (ie. no more than a 2 spot difference). Only main difference is that my page is nowhere to be found on the first 10 pages of SERPs for the singular form. So I do not feel that the issue is competitiveness related.

2) The page itself directly has maybe 2 or 3 inbound links... one of them is "click here", the other is "widget comparisons", and the third is "best widgets" (plural). I have no control over those links. The website the page is on has many more links of course, so there is a lot of internal juice flowing. But as far as direct links to the subpage go, these are the only 3.

3) Unfortunately I don't have control over the links. (Or fortunately...depending how one looks at it I guess.)

4) @lucy24; the difference between "widget" and "widgets" is no more than the difference between "computer" and "computers" (just an example - not my actual niche obviously).

It's worth noting that I've ranked for a long time for the singular form and only stopped ranking for it less than 2 months ago. There were no changes made on that specific page, nor any changes in the (3) incoming links, starting around June/July last year.

EDIT:

@dipper - yes, both the plural and singular form naturally appear within the copy (in headers, within the content etc). The Meta Title only has the plural version though. Still, that's never been a problem for any of my other pages or other websites that I have.

Robert Charlton

10:57 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



And is the singular form in html text content on the page itself?... in...

a) body text
b) hx headings
c) in onpage headings

Is the singular form alone, or is does "best widget" occur somewhere on the page?

How different is the meaning of the words? Would writing a short (hypothetical) article about "best widget" singular (as opposed to "best widgets" plural) noticeably change the sense of the other text in the article? I'm not asking about your page as you have it... just about any article. I'm trying to get a sense of how much difference there is in the meanings of the two forms.

hasek747

11:10 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



@Robert Charlton:

- "Best widget" (not just "widget" alone) occurs 5 times on the page (3 times in H2 titles, twice in body text. However, it does not occur anywhere near the top of the page (nowhere above the fold).
- "Best widgets" occurs 3 times on the page; in the H1, in the body text (first paragraph above the fold), and in an H2 lower in the page. It also occurs in the Meta Title.

Page is around 1800 words long.

Taking a quick look at pages ranking in top 3 for "Best Widget", I see the following as pertaining to the occurence of "Best Widget"

Page #1:

"Best Widget" occurs nowhere on the page. It has "Widgets" in the meta title, however (without "best"). "WIdget" on its own obviously occurs a few times on the page.

Page #2:

- Exactly the same as above. "Best widget" nowhere to be found on the page, nor in the meta title (the meta title does, again, contain "widget" by itself).

Page #3:

- Again exactly same situation as above.

(These are all websites like Cnet, Consumer Research, etc.).

Again, I outrank all those three pages above for "Best Widgets".

Should I really feel like I'm overoptimizing for "Best Widget"?

dipper

11:53 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Your on-page copy sounds reasonable and not lacking, but you didn't address on my second question - links to the site, do you have any using the singular term, either alone or in conjunction with other words/phrases etc .. checkout this great widget, widget shop, widget store, etc .. ?

Robert Charlton

11:55 pm on Jan 26, 2016 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Should I really feel like I'm overoptimizing for "Best Widget"?

Yes. Over and under, actually... mostly over. I think I would have included the singular in the title, if that's what I'd wanted to rank for.

The thought of over optimization occurred to me right after I read your opening couple of paragraphs, and it grew stronger as I read through your post. Actually, the thought occurred several times in earlier posts. When I asked in my first post if you'd pushed too hard in inbound links, I should have included onpage text as well.

Chances are your competitors do have more inbound links than you do boosting their pages, but I feel that it helps to have at least one match of the target term on page. Most important, though, the page really has to be about the topic you're wanting to rank for... it can't be just a vehicle for keywords... and other pages in your site have to support the broader implications of what the searchers are looking for.

It's really not just about keywords any more, and it's going to shift more and more to a broader-based algorithm. But I wouldn't completely forget about "classical" seo just yet.

timemachined

12:15 am on Jan 27, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Quote hasek747: "It's worth noting that I've ranked for a long time for the singular form and only stopped ranking for it less than 2 months ago. There were no changes made on that specific page, nor any changes in the (3) incoming links, starting around June/July last year."

I'm surprised none of the above have informed you that G dialled up and separated plural and singular results more a few months back, and that would appear to coincide with the change you saw too. I'll wait for someone to tell me I was seeing things again, but it's true.

I noticed big changes in plural and singular searches, more emphasis given on each rather than the previous 'same' positioning. It's a reason why I not only spread my synonyms but plurals and singulars too.

So while it's not your fault G changed the algo, it's up to you to figure out how to redirect your efforts. If on site keyword count still, erm counts, get working on articles with the singular in. At a guess, I don't know, disclaimer: I'm not an ex spurt.

And as RC says, never ever change your base output on seo or writing - what works will always work, just adapt slightly and build more in, as that's all G does too.

hasek747

12:19 am on Jan 27, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



@dipper:

No, none of the links pointing directly to the page use the singular form.

@Robert:

Yes, of course - the page is definitely about the subject. I wasn't focusing at all on keyword presence in fact, not to my recollection.

It's really not just about keywords any more, and it's going to shift more and more to a broader-based algorithm.

Sounds good to me!

I will reduce the frequency of "best widgets" occurrence on the page, and will change "Best Widgets" to "Best Widget" in both the H1 title and meta title. Let's see what happens.

EDIT:

@Timemachined:

quote: get working on articles with the singular in.

It wouldn't make sense in this case though. The plural and singular are so closely related that it would be unnatural (and non-useful / even confusing to readers) to have a separate page targeting the plural and a different page targeting the singular.

quote: just adapt slightly and build more in, as that's all G does too.

Could you explain what you mean by "build more in"? Not sure I follow.

Thanks.

[edited by: hasek747 at 12:27 am (utc) on Jan 27, 2016]

dipper

12:25 am on Jan 27, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I think you need a few links from good sources using variants of the singular form - they make the case to Google to help rank you for the related singular term.

hasek747

12:28 am on Jan 27, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



I'll try doing some on-site changes only first, will check again in 4 weeks and if I'm not back at least on page one for "best widget", I'll try one or two decent links.

Made the changes.

Meta Title and H1 now include "Best Widget". Content includes "Best widgets" once above the fold and "Best widget" once slightly below the fold. Let's see what happens.

tangor

1:13 am on Jan 27, 2016 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Gotta ask... does the plural pay off with conversions (sales) or merely sit at #1 and no bankroll attached?

hasek747

8:10 am on Jan 27, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Unfortunately it's an affiliate site, so it's quite harder for me to measure conversions per page in the same way e-commerce guys do. As far as I can say based only on affiliate link click rates and interaction with supplementary content... the singular seems to be much better (and has much more traffic volume, too - about five-fold).

People looking for the plural seem to only come to occasionally click out all the affiliate links on the page and leave. People looking for the singular click affiliate links far more often + also look for more information on-site about the specific product and how to use it.

So can't say with any degree of confidence.

JS_Harris

7:36 am on Jan 28, 2016 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Check Google image search for "Best Widget" and see if you have an image ranking for it in the top 100. If not, and you want to rank for best widget singular instead of plural you can make it singular in your page title, it should switch the rankings when it updates. Do so at your own risk however, it may vanish entirely or be replaced in a different spot because it's an entirely different set of results in Google's eyes. Switching it back also isn't guaranteed to put you back in the same spot you were in before, in fact it's likely you'd rank lower.

Robert Charlton

10:30 am on Jan 28, 2016 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



And as RC says, never ever change your base output on seo or writing - what works will always work, just adapt slightly and build more in, as that's all G does too.
timemachined, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I don't think I said anything like what I assume you're suggesting I said. It sounds way too formulaic for the way I approach things.

If you're referring to the spam detection patent, I recommend you read that entire discussion and take a look at the patent. Some excellent posts in the last few pages of the discussion... but good posts throughout. The discussion does not sound like what you're suggesting. The core idea in the thread, I think, it that you shouldn't fiddle so much that you raise flags to Google that you're testing the algorithm, and the thread suggests throughout that the considerations are more nuanced than that (and could well depend on the optimization history of the site).

With regard to discussion in this thread, it doesn't sound as if hasek747 has been making a bunch of experimental changes so far, which is good... but, going forward, I'm concerned that either frequent changing of the page title, or switching a lot of words as hasek747 suggested, might cause Google to test for manipulative intentions. The way Google would test might be to drop the ranking of the desired keyword, rather than raise it, and then to wait a while to see if further SEO changes are made. JS Harris, who just posted, describes some of the kinds of results Google might present to you.

So, I'd take it very slowly and gradually. The kind of situation hasek describes doesn't suggest that a lot of onpage change is what's needed. Right now you want to rank for "best widget" singular, but it appears that the title text, and the prominent text on the page, and the only widget-related inbound link are all plural.

On an analogous site I optimized with a partial match domain that had "widget" singular (for which we were dominant), but we very much needed a ranking for the plural "widgets". I wanted us also to continue to rank for "widget" singular. The change was accomplished by getting a single instance of plural "widgets" up near the top, not in either the title or main heading, and just one plural link of "widgets" (that I know of) pointing to the page. Just one... and it was one of the few times I've ever asked for specific anchor text. The link itself had already been offered.

...and will change "Best Widgets" to "Best Widget" in both the H1 title and meta title. Let's see what happens.

IMO, this sounds too extreme. On the page, perhaps switch one of the more prominent plural "widgets" to singular, but leave the title and heading alone... and hope for a singular link, which is what you need. Also, you might change either the H1 or the title element to singular, but not both. I'd take the cautious approach and make the change in the H1, I think, and leave the title alone.

Also, consider a good internal nav link from somewhere inside the site to the page with "widget" singular in the anchor text.

Additionally, to clarify that when I say "it's really not just about keywords any more", what that means in a case like this is that you want to describe what about this widget makes it the "best", but don't use frequent repetitions of the word "best" to do that.

Particularly since the phrase "best widget" is not what I'd call a natural sounding bit of language, you might want to remove one or two uses of the "best widget" phrase, but keep just one or two repeats of the phrase on the page, and then also "best" and "widget" by themselves... say in the area where you discuss quality factors about this widget that make the term "best" seem appropriate. Maybe add a few sentences... but don't rewrite the page... as it's already ranking. For me, the test is always how the page sounds when read aloud. Then, just let it sit for a long while and see if it changes. Resist reacting to changes Google presents to you.

Don't have two separate pages to target the singular and plural separately. If you have an additional page about the singular, it's got to be completely different. Hope this helps. Let us know what happens.

hasek747

12:10 pm on Jan 28, 2016 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Hi Robert,

Thanks for the thorough response.

I had already made changes on the page before reading this post of yours, so I will refrain from making any extra changes. I won't cry if the page loses traffic overall due to these changes; I'll consider it a valuable lesson. Right now what I have is:

+ "Best Widget" appearing in meta title.
+ "Best Widget" appearing in H1 header.
+ "Best widget" appearing once in text
+ "Best widgets" appearing once in text

That's all. Of course, the word "best" appears on its own a few times on the site, while the words "widget" and "widgets" appear multiple times completely naturally (around 10-12 times each (not really possible to avoid even after having used all possible synonyms to refer to it by different names).

I do have a different, highly topically related website, that I could use to place a link to the page using the singular anchor text "best widget". I won't do that now, however; I'll wait to see what happens to the rankings, and will consider the link in a month or two.

Interesting observations so far: while before making changes, none of the pages on my site ranked for singular "best widget" anywhere in the top 10 pages of Google, after having made the changes above, one of my pages is now ranking in #17 for "best widget" (while I still maintain #1 ranking for the plural form). The page ranking in position #17 is a review of a product that is linked from the "best widget" page (it is one of the top 4 products discussed on the page).