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Penalty lifted but traffic continues going down

         

chms

9:55 am on Nov 9, 2015 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Hi,

More than a year ago google lifted me a manual penalty, after this I expected the traffic would go growing up but nothing of this, the visits continued going down.

Before the penalty the website had 700,000 visits in a month, now it has 15,000, is terrible.

I had uploaded a disavow file with more than 400 domains, the most of my links, after seven reconsiderations I didn't know what to do for they lift the penalty because always responded me than I still had bad links.

I don't know if will be a good idea delete my disavow file or what to do.

martinibuster

12:53 pm on Nov 9, 2015 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



There seems to be a mode of thought that if one removes the bad links that the penalty will be lifted and the rankings will return. But what if those previous rankings were not earned? What if those previous rankings were due to links considered unearned? Then that would mean that the previous rankings were unearned.

I've heard your question before. Some people are of the opinion that there is an algorithmic anchor weighing down your rankings, keeping you from the high SERPs where your site belongs. What that means is that your site is entitled to be in the top. But the reality is that your site might not be entitled. The anchor theory is just that, a theory. It is not based on any scientific research or patent application. I've never read a paper about a suppressing sites that belong at the top for the purpose of punishing them. What would be the point? It's ludicrous when you think about it.

The reasonable assumption is that once you remove all the unearned links, where your site is left ranking is where it belongs. There may be issues with the content that needs fixing. Previously the content issues may have been overlooked because of the links. Or it could be you need to start over and build more links to replace the links you lost. In my opinion, for cases such as these, the site may be suffering from ranking where it belongs to rank.

jimbeetle

10:02 pm on Nov 9, 2015 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



When Google introduced the tool it strongly cautioned that it should not be used by most people because it feared they would wind up shooting themselves in the foot.

And in many cases that's exactly what's happened.

Instead of disavowing only links that you might have built, you very possibly disavowed naturally occurring links that you thought smelled a little, but were actually giving a bit of a boost to your rankings.

You hint that you disavowed most of your links, so as martinibuster says it's time to some quality links to replace those.

fathom

1:52 am on Nov 10, 2015 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



The problem with disavowing, if the same domains or links were never devalued you are, in theory, reducing your available PageRank which in turn impacts ranks, and thus traffic diminishes.

First though ... 700,000/month in unnatural traffic cannot be use as your natural traffic peak so what traffic level were you at when Google revoked the manual review?

martinibuster

4:28 am on Nov 10, 2015 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



The problem with disavowing, if the same domains or links were never devalued you are, in theory, reducing your available PageRank which in turn impacts ranks, and thus traffic diminishes.

I agree fathom. I cringe at what some SEO people have disavowed.

chms

6:20 am on Nov 10, 2015 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



What would happen if I reduce the numbers of links in the disavow file?

fathom

6:55 am on Nov 10, 2015 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Unknown... Google had never hinted about what happens when undoing disavows for either good or bad reasons or whether they would even trust a reversal action. The original caution is quite clear:

This is an advanced feature and should only be used with caution. If used incorrectly, this feature can potentially harm your site’s performance in Google’s search results.

Ebuzz

3:33 am on Nov 11, 2015 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



You need to take a very good look at your links again. Disavowing may not be enough if you didn't show any concrete attempt to remove them.

And like others said, maybe you are disavowing the good links as well. Also, manual penalties and algo penalties are quite different from each other. You might get Reconsidered again, but fail with the algo (Penguin).

Make sure your site isn't affected by the ongoing Panda. It could be Panda as well. Does your site rank top for its own domain name? If not, there could be other issues....

Speaking from experience ;)

Robert Charlton

8:16 am on Nov 11, 2015 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



What would happen if I reduce the numbers of links in the disavow file?

Unknown... Google had never hinted about what happens when undoing disavows for either good or bad reasons or whether they would even trust a reversal action.

Not true. I think that Google has gotten fairly explicit about this, and I'll cite sources below. Here's my interpretation of the interpretations of Google spokespeople....

- Including a link in the disavow file effectively adds a "nofollow" attribute to the link when Google crawls it.
- Removing the link from the file will remove the "nofollow" after the next crawl.
- If you remove the disavow from a "problematic link", though, the link will be "problematic" again, and Google may be harsher about penalties the second time around.


The nuances are well presented by Marie Haynes and Jennifer Slegg, both writing here for Search Engine Watch, Marie citing John Mueller and also citing Jennifer Slegg citing Matt Cutts... and Jennifer citing Matt Cutts. "Contentious points" are noted. I emphasize the word "may" above about reinstating a problematic link, because Marie may be overthinking this particular point, but she cites a client's experience to back it up.

Sources, with some notes...

7 Things You May Not Know About Google's Disavow Tool
Marie Haynes - February 26, 2014
[searchenginewatch.com...]

Marie quoting John Mueller...
"Links are essentially only disavowed as long as they are in the disavow file. So, if you remove them after some point, then essentially when we recrawl and reprocess those URLs ... then we will treat those as normal links again. If you remove them, then essentially you are returning them to their normal state. If they were problematic links in the past then they would be problematic links again."

---

Matt Cutts: Google Penalties Get More Severe for Repeat Offenders
Jennifer Slegg - Dec 11, 2013
[searchenginewatch.com...]

Jennifer quoting Matt Cutts...
"Google tends to look at buying and selling links that pass PageRank as a violation of our guidelines and if we see that happening multiple times, repeated times, then the actions that we take get more and more severe," Cutts said. "So we're more willing to take stronger action whenever we see repeated violations."

---

How can a site recover from a period of spamming links?
Matt Cutts - Dec 9, 2013
YouTube - trt 2:44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRi1rAI_TmY [youtube.com]

Regarding circumstances that may cause a disavow and then a reinstatement request, which is potentially part of chms' question....

Jennifer interpreting the above Matt Cutts video...
So if you're looking to recover from a bad backlink penalty in Google, the fastest way to resolve it will be to simply disavow all the links obtained during the "suspicious" period of time when you purchased links. At the very least, you should disavow everything that could possibly be a problematic link. You'll be able to get back into the index quicker....

Marie suggests some caution about initially disavowing everything and then following with a reinstate request...
If a link you reavow was indeed one that Google had considered unnatural, removing it from your disavow won't do any good and actually could do you harm. A client of mine got penalized a second time by Google by reinstating links that they had previously disavowed. When you get penalized a second time, Google makes you work even harder to get your penalty lifted! / A good example of a situation where you might want to reavow a link would be the case where you have disavowed an entire domain, but now have a truly natural link from that domain....

I don't think that the disavow tool is a place to experiment, but the above might help you think through your next move, depending on the circumstances of your original disavows.

PS: I should add, for the purposes of this present discussion, that the implications of the word "problematic" are not spelled out, and I'm not interested in trying to interpret that word further. ;)

Robert Charlton

8:23 am on Nov 11, 2015 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



PPS: And to emphasize again what martinibuster said, because in my experience, that is most often the core problem in this situation....
There seems to be a mode of thought that if one removes the bad links that the penalty will be lifted and the rankings will return. But what if those previous rankings were not earned? What if those previous rankings were due to links considered unearned? Then that would mean that the previous rankings were unearned....

Shai

11:06 am on Nov 11, 2015 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I agree with pretty much everything that was said in this thread. In the old days, when you recovered from a manual penalty, it was extremely common to bounce right back to almost identical positions your site held prior to the penalty. This is where the current confusion arises from with some webmasters who seem to still expect this type of behaviour today. One of our own sites which had a manual penalty on it in 2008 due to theme sponsorships (it became quite a famous thread on the indexing Google group forum at the time) bounced back once the reconsideration request was accepted. i.e the very next day, the site was back at number 1 for many of its high competition keywords. This does not happen any more. The only difference now, after they accepted your RR is that they no longer artificially holding your site back to the same extent that they did before they accepted your RR.

I still think there is some holding back due to loss of trust but it does seem to disappear after a short length of time (I would say around 1 - 3 months).

fathom

8:48 pm on Nov 11, 2015 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



There seems to be a mode of thought that if one removes the bad links that the penalty will be lifted and the rankings will return. But what if those previous rankings were not earned? What if those previous rankings were due to links considered unearned? Then that would mean that the previous rankings were unearned.

I've heard your question before. Some people are of the opinion that there is an algorithmic anchor weighing down your rankings, keeping you from the high SERPs where your site belongs. What that means is that your site is entitled to be in the top. But the reality is that your site might not be entitled. The anchor theory is just that, a theory. It is not based on any scientific research or patent application. I've never read a paper about a suppressing sites that belong at the top for the purpose of punishing them. What would be the point? It's ludicrous when you think about it.

The reasonable assumption is that once you remove all the unearned links, where your site is left ranking is where it belongs. There may be issues with the content that needs fixing. Previously the content issues may have been overlooked because of the links. Or it could be you need to start over and build more links to replace the links you lost. In my opinion, for cases such as these, the site may be suffering from ranking where it belongs to rank.


Agreed.

The after effect whether a Manual Review is revoked or a PENGUIN effect is reversed... You generally cannot recover by removing or disavowing links.

Natural PageRank is simply GAS.

Any sign of potential recovery is the value of your internal website breadcrumbs being released from the PENGUIN prison they got locked into when PENGUIN discovered a pattern of unnatural anchors in external links. (Not the only thing but the most common)

While a Manual Review is a different beast the Google Webspam Team are the developers of PENGUIN thus the automated process is the same style as the Manual Process.

If you passed a Manual Review to get a revoke, it is highly unlikely you are being impacted by PENGUIN. More likely you never deserved the results you got because your unnatural links (UNEARNED) artificially produced the 700,000/month.

The level you were at after the revoke is your natural traffic level.

Although that is GREAT NEWS... you have a known target you can aim for, where most website owners need to guess where their Google traffic cap is.