Google confirms Penguin recovery requires algorithm refresh

[Robert Charlton]

Barry over at SERoundtable [seroundtable.com...] noted today that Google's John Mueller had confirmed that Penguin recovery is possible, but not until after the algorithm is refreshed and/or data is updated... and that has not happened in quite a while.

John made the statement, quoted below, in a Google Product Forum Help discussion...

Has Google ever definitively stated that it is possible to recover from Penguin?
[productforums.google.com...]

Yes, assuming the issues are resolved in the meantime, with an update of our algorithm or its data, it will no longer be affecting your site.

Seems we've discussed this any number of times, and I believe that John has also confirmed this on one of his Google Hangouts, but I don't have the reference handy. Marie Haynes, who tweeted the announcement, has also previously discussed the issue.

To be emphasized... ranking recovery will happen after disavow only if you also have a sufficient number of high quality links, beyond the links you've disavowed.

[EditorialGuy]

It all equals out in the wash!

Yep. And for everyone who's itching for a Penguin update, there's probably someone else who's crossing his or her fingers and praying for the status quo.

[seoskunk]

I hope the algo refresh see's a return of indepedent business to the search results

[fathom]

I hope the algo refresh see's a return of independent business to the search results

...or so all those spammers can start spamming again?

[seoskunk]

...or so all those spammers can start spamming again?

You have either a misguided belief in brands or a low belief in independent business's or both. You should apply for a job at google.

[System]

The following message was cut out to new thread by goodroi. New thread at: google/4701869.htm [webmasterworld.com]
12:44 pm on Sep 14, 2014 (utc -5)

[fathom]

Some big brands do webspam right alone side some little guys.

I also really don't believe in the "I'm innocent, I have never used webspam so my competitor did it". (most don't think what they have done is webspam - but it is)

Some got caught & some didn't but that isn't Google's fault nor Google's flaw that is 'ours'.

I'm still producing webspam. I call it webspam simply because it exploits a loophole in the algorithms but it isn't on Google's radar just yet and when it is, I will invent something new.

[EditorialGuy]

Some big brands do webspam right alone side some little guys.

Yes, and some get caught and penalized. (Expedia and eBay come to mind.)

[xelaetaks]

All I can say is I hope that Penguin can bring small businesses on top. It gets boring seeing the same top websites at the top of the dearch results. If it really is about quality content then seeing companies that actually specialize in the industry people are searching would make more sense, Sometimes those do come up but other times it seems to be some of the top corporations which people know about already.

This seems almost like what happened when Wal-Mart started taking out small businesses but it's a bit different being the internet and with 'content' being a focus, I think a remedy would be to give some of these old backlink sites less credit as well as the black hat so people are less likely to get hit by negative seo.

[fathom]

If it really is about quality content then seeing companies that actually specialize in the industry people are searching would make more sense

Quality content is a really vague reference... it is about the perception of quality "ABSOLUTELY" ...YES but like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder an algorithm merely looks from a mathematical vantagepoint.

To it "beauty" is primarily about links so that is what Googlebot sees as beautiful... but Googlebot cannot see passed it own biases... "links, links, and more links... which can also be manipulated.

So PENGUIN sifts through Googlebot's data... separates it through its discriminating lenses and spits out everything that remotely seems like manipulation - primarily tied to external links but also internal over-optimization practices. Then hands Googlebot back that data without what it perceived as its biases added in.

Why they don't class this as a penalty?

If you were actually getting a penalty you wouldn't rank "at all".

IF FOR EXAMPLE: If you are still in results even down to #1000 (OUT OF MORE THAN 1000 RESULTS) Google is still allowing certain merits to be used to keep you in the top 1000. Clearly, if Google pulls 1.2 million results and only displays the top 1000 there are 1.199900 results potential below you so you are still ranking well... just not ranking well enough for clicks (traffic).

[EditorialGuy]

If it really is about quality content then seeing companies that actually specialize in the industry people are searching would make more sense

Panda (not Penguin) is about content quality. Penguin is about "over-optimization."

For what it's worth, Matt Cutts has said several times that Google is working on what might be termed a "subject expertise" ranking boost. ("If you're an authority on X, we'd like to give you a boost for queries related to X," or words to that effect.) But that has nothing to do with Penguin, so it won't need to wait for a Penguin update.

[xelaetaks]

So PENGUIN sifts through Googlebot's data... separates it through its discriminating lenses and spits out everything that remotely seems like manipulation - primarily tied to external links but also internal over-optimization practices. Then hands Googlebot back that data without what it perceived as its biases added in.

Why they don't class this as a penalty?

If you were actually getting a penalty you wouldn't rank "at all".

IF FOR EXAMPLE: If you are still in results even down to #1000 (OUT OF MORE THAN 1000 RESULTS) Google is still allowing certain merits to be used to keep you in the top 1000. Clearly, if Google pulls 1.2 million results and only displays the top 1000 there are 1.199900 results potential below you so you are still ranking well... just not ranking well enough for clicks (traffic).

That's not true though - Penguin Penalties can keep your site listed but make you not show up high in the serps so you don't really get any Google traffic even though you're still in the index.

A lot of sites have seen them go to page 8-10 for some of their keywords after being hit with a Penguin Penalty, and being stuck there regardless what content and no matter how high the quality goes up on their site.

[xelaetaks]

Panda (not Penguin) is about content quality. Penguin is about "over-optimization."

For what it's worth, Matt Cutts has said several times that Google is working on what might be termed a "subject expertise" ranking boost. ("If you're an authority on X, we'd like to give you a boost for queries related to X," or words to that effect.) But that has nothing to do with Penguin, so it won't need to wait for a Penguin update.

I hope that is true about subject expertise and ranking, that would be a solid addition, especially for people that have sites that specialize in a niche, etc...

[EditorialGuy]

Xelaetaks, here's a video from last April where Matt Cutts talka about subject expertise or authority and how it might become a ranking factor in Google Search. Matt's discussion of that topic starts around the 2:00 mark:

[youtube.com...]

[mrengine]

Just a further note: long before Google developed PENGUIN they nailed me 4 times for almost a million dollars in domains.

It all equals out in the wash!

You must have a very small and narrow washing machine if you believe that.

If you lost a million dollars in domain names, it's much different than businesses who have a physical location, manufacturing capabilities, skilled employees that operate the machinery, a fully staffed shipping and receiving department and CDL drivers that make deliveries. These businesses have a much larger investment in their communities than most who have domain name portfolios in excess of a million dollars. When these businesses are harmed by Google, it sends a ripple effect throughout the community in lost jobs, lost local tax revenue, more empty commercial real estate, etc.

You just can't compare losing a million dollars in domains to companies who invested $30 in a single domain name that also spent millions of dollars on facilities, tens of millions of dollars on equipment, and payrolls that once exceeded a million dollars a year by employing members of their communities. You can go out and buy new domain names, while the companies I speak of are largely gone forever.

If bad links are allowed to derail such an investment by businesses, I could only imagine what the world will look like in ten years.

[fathom]

You must have a very small and narrow washing machine if you believe that.

If you lost a million dollars in domain names, it's much different than businesses who have a physical location, manufacturing capabilities, skilled employees that operate the machinery, a fully staffed shipping and receiving department and CDL drivers that make deliveries. These businesses have a much larger investment in their communities than most who have domain name portfolios in excess of a million dollars. When these businesses are harmed by Google, it sends a ripple effect throughout the community in lost jobs, lost local tax revenue, more empty commercial real estate, etc.

You just can't compare losing a million dollars in domains to companies who invested $30 in a single domain name that also spent millions of dollars on facilities, tens of millions of dollars on equipment, and payrolls that once exceeded a million dollars a year by employing members of their communities. You can go out and buy new domain names, while the companies I speak of are largely gone forever.

If bad links are allowed to derail such an investment by businesses, I could only imagine what the world will look like in ten years.

First, if you have that much in collateral coming from an initial investment of a $30 domain I am sure you can afford to diversify away from a single $30 hedge fund.

Second, if your business is that unstable that you have no ability to adopt a new strategy, and there was that much at stake, not sure why anyone would be so cavalier with their future and investments without having the same forethought as your afterthoughts.

The difference... I was prepared for the fall... if you were not, that was the flaw in your business planning. Don't blame your supply chain that you decided didn't need to have your permission to change... that should have been your first act.

[mrengine]

I think you missed the whole point fathom. The people who spend millions on domain names often run the same thin content websites and engage in link spam that penguin should be targeting - not damaging the businesses that did not engage in any of these activities.

Leeching traffic from Google to divert traffic to Google ads or affiliate websites is a far cry from a company that instead concentrates on their production floor and customer service. While you have the knowledge and skill to ditch a million dollars worth of domains, many businesses are not as savvy, could care less about SEO services and don't know what a "backlink" is. They just want to be found naturally, but I find them buried under stacked Amazon and Ebay listings.

With that being said, penguin is a failure and part of the reason why big businesses dominate the search results. These big businesses are either white listed, penguin was modeled after their websites or for other reasons which I won't discuss here.

Trust me, you would be amazed at what some tool and die makers can produce yet they can barely understand how to send an email. Sure, their strategy is non-existent because they are busy making widgets instead of trying to pull one over on Google.

No business should have to dump their brand each time Google has an update. But that's exactly what needs to happen for some of these businesses to recover.