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Sites that SHOULD Have Been Killed By Penguin But Weren't?

         

Planet13

3:38 pm on May 14, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Hi there, Everyone:

Penguin baffles me...

The #1 site in my niche has (and has always had) the title:


Buy Blue Widgets | Blue Widgets for Sale | Blue Colored Widgets | Blue Metal Widgets | Ceramic Blue Widget


I am NOT making this up!

They have over 450 paid directory links (not with the term Blue Widgets, but a much broader term).

Their page is a category page and has 24 products on it, and has only one paragraph of text, which appears at the BOTTOM of the page, AFTER the links to all the product pages.

How do sites like this escape Penguin?

netmeg

5:41 pm on May 14, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



That title in and of itself might not necessarily be considered keyword stuffing, particularly if products of that nature all appear on the page. I mean, it looks a little funky to us, but it's pretty common, particularly for pages that have a variety of products on them.

Paid directory links - depends on the directory. And if the anchor text doesn't match the spammy seeming keywords in the title, that might help.

Perhaps the SERP gets clicked on a lot, perhaps it is shared a lot - or maybe it's just one of those cases when G couldn't figure out the authority or a decent brand and just served up any old thing. Impossible to say just from this.

Planet13

6:46 pm on May 14, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



That title in and of itself might not necessarily be considered keyword stuffing, particularly if products of that nature all appear on the page. I mean, it looks a little funky to us, but it's pretty common, particularly for pages that have a variety of products on them.


It does have a variety of the same closely related products on the page (meaning they are all variations of Blue Widgets) with some minor variations in material or design.

Paid directory links - depends on the directory.


These are generally "SEO Directories"; the owner's of the directories proudly state that by paying for a listing in their directory that your page rank will improve.

These directories don't have any "good" backlinks themselves. the owners of these directories usually own several and interlink between them, or get backlinks by paying for listings in other SEO directories.

And if the anchor text doesn't match the spammy seeming keywords in the title, that might help.


Taking the "blue widgets" example above, and pretending that a widget is a type of appliance, they most often use the anchor text "colored appliances" and point it at their home page (not this landing page).

Oddly enough, I saw a lot of links where they used a far more esoteric word than "appliances"; The word they used is a loan word from French and would normally be written with an accent mark above one of the vowels. When looking through backlinks with this word in it, some times it was rendered legibly, sometimes without the accent mark, sometimes there was one of those real funky looking characters instead.

There are a few examples where it is exact "blue widgets" and pointed at their landing page, but not for the most part. The exact match anchor text tends to come from article directories instead of SEO directory listings (like hub pages and squidoo).

Oh, and they own about four other sites that are SOMEWHAT similar and interlink between them.

Perhaps the SERP gets clicked on a lot...


Could be, although there isn't any value proposition displayed in the search results. Just the spammy title, and a weak meta description that pretty much echoes the title. If their listing gets clicked a lot, if probably primarily due to the fact that it is listed first.

(Is it possible in any way that google uses clickthrough rate of adwords and applies that in ranking calculations for organic SERPs? Their adwords ads are much more compelling than their organic title and description.)

Further, I don't think they are benefiting from any form of brand recognition. the company's name is NOT in the title (although, obviously, it is in the displayed URL under the title).

perhaps it is shared a lot


Possibly. The social buttons FOR THAT PARTICULAR PAGE are down in the footer area, so I don't know how much action they get. You have to scroll down a LONG way to see them.

However, clicking through to one of the product pages, the social buttons appear right below the product images, and they do have a better than average number of shares (for this niche).

one other thing: the site does have a halfway "exact match" domain name, since their domain name is something along the lines of: widgetirrelevant.com (where the irrelevant word is just some sort of funky word that doesn't really convey any sort of value proposition either).

aristotle

12:50 am on May 15, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Planet13 -
From your description, it appears that this other company may have been fairly clever (or else lucky) in the way they created their backlinks. Maybe they've been able to skate right along the edge of what would trigger Penguin.

Planet13

2:47 am on May 15, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



Maybe they've been able to skate right along the edge of what would trigger Penguin.


Maybe...

I think that possibly having a lot of "real world" marketing might make a difference, too (affiliate programs, banner ads, adwords, facebook advertising, etc.,)

Otherwise, I thought that penguin and panda was specifically designed to demote these kinds of sites...

Sgt_Kickaxe

3:23 am on May 15, 2012 (gmt 0)



I've noticed that sites with fake fronts are doing well, perhaps a sign that they fooled the Google human evaluators. examples:

- Link directory front with 100% affiliate links inside
- Classified site front with 100% stolen content 'mashed up' from other sites inside
- Coupon front with 100% affiliate coupon links inside
- Blog front with 100% MFA content via rss feeds inside (this one REALLY should have been caught)
- Ranking front with 100% paid links inside that doesn't rank anything

Where's the algo? Sites that 'look' like real sites shouldn't be getting top 3 rankings and recently the above have all appeared in my niche. Each has something the typical spam sites don't such as a shopping cart, an 800 number or a prominent submit form but none of these are fully functional. The coupon site scrapes images from Bing too.

backdraft7

5:53 pm on May 20, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



IMHO - ANY site using the keyphrase | keyphrase | keyphase | keyphrase | keyphrase title is keyword stuffing. Is that a "natural" title, no. Is it an attempt at over optimization? Yes. I have a competitor who tried that for about a month, now he just went back to copying my tile & removing two words. Idiot!

Planet13

7:31 pm on May 20, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



IMHO - ANY site using the keyphrase | keyphrase | keyphase | keyphrase | keyphrase title is keyword stuffing. Is that a "natural" title, no.


Agreed.

But in all fairness, it does at least point to either a flaw in the algo that can be exploited (by those who are willing), or it points to keyword stuffing being a true red herring as to the cause of a Penguin demotion.

Robert Charlton

2:12 am on May 21, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



...it does at least point to either a flaw in the algo that can be exploited (by those who are willing), or it points to keyword stuffing being a true red herring as to the cause of a Penguin demotion.

I think that the algorithm is more multi-dimensional than that, and it can be awfully hard to pin down exact factors. Also, just because you are seeing something that looks spammy on a site that is ranking doesn't mean that's why the site is ranking.

With regard to pointing to a title like this as evidence of an algo flaw... be careful what you wish for. It's very possible that taking out all sites with such titles might result in a lot of collateral damage, and, as noted, the keyword repetition in this title might not explain why the site is ranking at all.

Though I tend not to repeat keywords in titles, it's occasionally been an open question for me whether repetition might help or hurt with rankings. In this case, I do agree that the keyword-stuffed example looks spammy (and is), and that the list-like title would likely hurt on click-throughs if nothing else... but maybe not always.

As for lists and clicks... I can imagine a more gracefully worded list that might attract clicks... something like, say, "parsley sage rosemary and thyme", albeit perhaps more original and less competitive. ;)

And what about, say: Red Widgets | Blue Widgets | Green Widgets | More!

Possibly rhythm enters into it as well as repetition.

backdraft7

6:24 am on May 21, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



Again, write for the user, not the search engine. The keyphrase | keyphrase | keyphase | keyphrase | keyphrase approach seems to indicate a desire to jam everything onto one page (keyword loading) and influence the algo. If you have other varieties, perhaps a nice navigation menu with a separate page and title for each item would be a more user friendly approach. Every time I see those piped titles, I cringe.

smithaa02

1:44 pm on May 21, 2012 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member



Competitor bought a TON of backlinks from two SEO companies...and they are still number #1. Penguin has failed here. They did so in early 2011...which to me...despite Cutts talking about how they've been monitoring sites for a while...means they may have only been using link building data from the past say 6 months.

Planet13

2:32 pm on May 21, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



I think that the algorithm is more multi-dimensional than that, and it can be awfully hard to pin down exact factors.


That is true. I think therefore it is important to look at other factors that might be causing Penguin demotions as well, because keyword stuffing will apparently (in certain instances) NOT result in an ipso facto Penguin demotion. (Neither will links from cheap directory listings, apparently.)

~~~~~

It is also important to note that this particular spammy title is NOT re-written automatically in google SERPs to a more user-friendly title. We have seen that google is more than willing to provide (what google considers to be) more useful titles for their search results.

The fact that this title ISN'T automatically rewritten gives me pause to think that something else is in play here. Maybe SERP titles are rewritten based partly on user personalization?

Planet13

2:40 pm on May 21, 2012 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



@ Sgt_Kickaxe

I've noticed that sites with fake fronts are doing well, perhaps a sign that they fooled the Google human evaluators.


Yup. Noticed that too. I was searching for particular app and the number one was a "comparison" site that listed only affiliate links. Many of the sites they linked out to were no longer up. This page last appears to be updated in 2004.

Another disheartening trend is the prevalence of what could be considered "phone directory" type sites ranking well. I did a search for "wholesale widgets [city name]" and the top sites were various city directories that listed nothing more than the name and address of various widget shops in that city - and none of them sold wholesale.

The city directories were of the well-funded variety, so it wasn't the small, independent directories that generally have at least MORE content on them (even if that content is scraped or duplicate of content elsewhere).