The End Of Page Rank?

[kidder]

Does anyone think Google is moving away from the green bar in order to perhaps kill of the page rank "industry"? I was just listening to a podcast on the subject and had not even noticed page rank had been removed from Google webmaster tools. Imagine the fallout in the link buying and selling industry without the little green bar, I don't think PR has much to do with the true value of a link but there are plenty of people out there who certainly do. It's probably long past due that sites should be judged on content, actual traffic volumes and rankings rather than impressive backlink profiles anyway.

[callivert]

it's a great FUD agent for the uninformed and lazy

with respect, I find the idea that toolbar PR is a deliberate attempt by Google to spread misinformation highly implausible.
To say the least.

There's no evidence for it; it goes completely against their corporate culture of pride in producing quality products; and it violates Occam's Razor, big time.

[dertyfern]

TBPR on it's own doesn't offer much in the way of value. But it is a guide of sorts that can be used in conjuction with other factors to arrive at a decision on the "potential" quality of a site.

It's hillarious though when speaking with "seos" that discuss the finer points of using TBPR and tons of inbound links to "get you ranked high"...In that we can all be grateful that Google's helping cull the heard of competition for us.

Though behind them are more, and more, and more ready to enter the game.

[whitenight]

with respect, I find the idea that toolbar PR is a deliberate attempt by Google to spread misinformation highly implausible.
To say the least. There's no evidence for it; it goes completely against their corporate culture of pride in producing quality products; and it violates Occam's Razor, big time.

Do a search for Adam Lasnik's last posts on this board and the discussion I was having with him.
(Concering TBPR, paid links and rel=nofollow)

I couldn't disagree with your premise more.

_{Btw - why hasn't Adam been back since that discusssion? Wasn't he specifically hired as a Webmasters-Google liaison?}

[Whitey]

What's the link ?

[Shaddows]

I would imagine its this one [webmasterworld.com]

[whitenight]

what's the link?

lol really?

Search "Proposed: Google Should Stop Displaying Toolbar PR"

but you still have to search the convo around that thread to get the full impact.

(lol, yea, still not going to link to it for you)

-----
Don't be an enabler Shaddows =P

[Shaddows]

ye found it now. Fancy it not being the first one that came up and all, and actually having to follow 2 further clicks (profile and SECOND FROM TOP) thread. Dearie me, the work.

[whitenight]

Dearie me, the work.

roflmao. =)

You just linked the other thread surrounding the issue, so i guess I'll forgive ya. =P

[Whitey]

I forgot I posted on that vibrant thread .... but it is 2 years ago. What's changed though ? Same old , same old ..

...except that the jolly green bar get's updated more frequently , and grey bars that I've been watching have become jolly green again .

Have there been any notable communications in from the Google team since that memorable post [ that i forgot ] ?

[whitenight]

Have there been any notable communications in from the Google team since that memorable post [ that i forgot ] ?

Methinks, being a sentence or two away from openly admitting the TBPR's legal liability had the Google attys step in and prevent as many "interactions" with webmasters in general. (but considerably update the TBPR rollouts)

I apologize if that's why they haven't been around lately...

But I believe those threads "woke up" more people about Google's "corporate culture of pride", aka Public relations FUD machine, than anything up to that point.

_{i miss miamacs :(}

[callivert]

I read that thread too. There were suggestions in that thread also about the legal bombshell that Google was sitting on which never seem to eventuate. Plus, there were suggestions that Google uses toolbar to deliberately spread misinformation and FUD... but still with zero evidence. Just speculation and assertion.

So, given that there's no evidence to show otherwise, we can conclude that the toolbar still shows "real" pagerank; although with the caveat that it's only updated a few times a year, and pagerank plays less of a role in SERPs than it once did.

[whitenight]

So, given that there's no evidence to show otherwise, we can conclude that the toolbar still shows "real" pagerank; although with the caveat that it's only updated a few times a year, and pagerank plays less of a role in SERPs than it once did.

lol ok callivert.
Believe what you want. ;)

Assuming you "buy links" (which, at this point, is the only "purpose" for TBPR for the aforementioned webmasters),
you can continue to OVERPAY and waste money for those PR5+ links that do little to nothing to improve your SERPs.

or

you can wonder in amazement why my(those) TBPR 0-2 pages are consistently killing your and other's TBPR 6+ pages in the SERPS
with 1/20th the links you/they have.

You wanna defend Goog or learn how to dominate your niche?
I guess it all depends on where your loyalties lie...
or how much you fear your competitors FUD being replaced with knowledge.

(or how motivated you are to rank with the least possible effort and greatest possible profit)

[edited by: whitenight at 12:26 pm (utc) on Nov. 4, 2009]

[Shaddows]

That Miamacs intervention, wow. Did that investment desision really happen? Does it STILL happen? Ouch.

TBPR hasn't had relevance for a while. Other factors are more important than PR in links aquisition anyway- like relevance, link placement, and proximity to... various things.

True story. I used to worry about all the things I "should" or "shouldn't" be doing, going by the advice of "experts" on forums like these, and pronouncements from the google hierarchy. In that dim and distant past, I had the toolbar installed, even though I knew the PR data was faulty. It must mean SOMETHING. Surely. I mean, Google must have a use for it- Google wants us to be the best we can be, don't they?

Then something happened. Rather that watching my rankings, I started watching other people's. I did full analysis of other sites, sites that ranked in the top 20, but I couldn't see why. Sites that looked ugly, beautiful, structured and messy. Sites completely unrelated to me or my industry, sites that dominated phrases I would never be interested in, and those that underperformed in my niche.

And you know what. Google tells lies and half-truths, but not that often. What they mainly do is "lies-to-children". Like Rutherford's model of the atom, its complete fiction, but fiction that superficially offers an explanation of observed results. And the fact is, quite a bit of chemistry can be done with it. It works for the application it was designed for- just like TBPR.

Observing, even more than testing, has taught me a lot- more than I can put into words. And everything I want to say should properly be couched in clauses and qualifiers. Then I read other people, and I realise the same is true for everyone. Its all "lies-to-children", oversimplification of stuff. Almost everything you will read on WebmasterWorld is an oversimplification, true in a certain light, but usually not for universal application.

In that spirit, Page Rank as something you need to monitor is dead. TBPR is dead. Its might be, in some instances, good for shorthand when "lying" to the latest "child" asking what is, to many of us, a silly question. But its near the bottom of my considerations when I'm trying to obtain rankings.

PR comes automatically with all the other goodness I'm actively seeking. All the other goodness may be missing if I go chasing PR.

---------------

Added - Look at the latest TBPR Update thread. Plenty of people wondering how unlinked pages have high PR, and well-linked pages have gone down. Why would this happen if TBPR was full and accurate (if a bit lumpy and out-of-date). Staleness and lack of precision do not explain that result.

[Reno]

Google tells lies and half-truths, but not that often. What they mainly do is "lies-to-children".

Good analogy Shaddows. The problem of course is that as a result of these oversimplications and half-truths, it opens the door for all the SEO emails that most siteowners/webmasters get every day, about putting our sites "at the top of Google". It allows these SEO types to come across as Santa Claus, delivering a bag of high-ranking gifts to the good little boys & girls who fork over the money. Thus, as the old saying goes, "no good deed goes unpunished". Google is trying to give enough info to satisfy people's curiosity, and in so doing, makes a ton of other problems. It's at a point now where it might be best to either come clean or say nothing.

...........................

[Leosghost]

It's at a point now where it might be best to either come clean or say nothing.

Coming clean would entail publicly admitting to having lied in the past ..and having lied = having done evil ..for a long time ..

Saying nothing ..would make people, investors, very many webmasters etc wonder as to the sudden silence from the public relations people at the plex on certain subjects ..

So ( and to continue Shaddow's analogy ) ..the lies inevitably begat other lies and continue to beget still more ("Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to decieve") ..it grows like Topsy ..

The "GOOG knows what is best for the web" culture shown in the past has fed upon itself and has combined with the knowledge that outside of a few of us ..most internet users ..even many "webmasters" ..don't have the brains to care if it's "bread and circuses" anyway ..

Youtube is a good distraction ( for the "new generation" )..interactive sheeple magnet ..hypnotise the flock into looking the other way whilst you shear their asses raw ..( and get them to post pictures of each others shorn regions )..loosing money ? ...

Only if you look at it in isolation ..overall it is worth it to them for the loyalty and the stickiness it engenders in the under 25's to the GOOG brand ..it is an efficient shelob at the centre of the web ..and no one leaves it's presence without some sticky tracky cookies.

Page rank will stay until they think of something that serves their ends in it's niche ( disinformation for those without the understanding but who look a little more under the search engine hood ) better ..they know that most of us know they are lying ..but it bothers them less than it did ..we aren't the voices and especially not the eyeballs that interest them ...nor do our habits .

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

CDs
Computers
Car hire
accommodation London
hotels singapore
viagra
mesothelioma
restaurant
britney spears

I just did a little (non scientific) test on the above searches. The top results for all of them had good to great page rank. Go figure?

[whitenight]

Not sure what you're point is/was, but your test really doesn't prove it.

Hmm let see on page 1

viagra - 2 PR1s
Cds - 1 PR3
hotels singapore - 4 PR4s or below
accommodation London - 4 PR4s or below (2 PR2s)
britney spears - 1 PR4
restaurant - 2 PR N/A! (eliminating local sites placed in SERPS)

"computers, car hire, mesothelioma"?
Really?

Not like there are 10-20 national/international name brand companies with 100,000s of links for each company in these industries. -.-

NOTE - ALL of these searches showed Wiki taking 1-2 spots.

And lest we forget, we(I) documented Wiki's rise and dominance as an authority way back when it had a few measly million links and individual pages had PR0-3.

Remember those days? When everyone was griping about why Wiki was taking over every search?

[whitenight]

Let's play with some of those hugely broad and hopelessly unfocused keywords and look at some money keyword derivatives.

buy viagra - 8 pr4s or below
buy computers - 2 pr3s or belows
mesothelioma lawyer - 10 PR4s or below

Now, these are the immediate keywords that popped into my mind as the money keywords for those terms.

Again, this is TOOLBAR PR we are talking about,
so it's like arguing whether dragons or gryphons fly faster,
but take it for what it's worth.

[eelixduppy]

Moderator's Note: Please let's stay away from specific search terms.

[Leosghost]

Given the differences that happen due to geotargeting ( and we are from all over the world here )..even between searches run from inside the same county ..or from behind the same router from different profiled by GOOG due to cookies and or "history" and or "accounts"..

"specific search terms" is like the old zen " a glass of water" ..

I agree entirely with eelixduppy ( although our reasoning as to why may differ in the detail ..where the devil layeth of old ) ..

"Specific search terms" are now irrelevant and IMO "referencing them " serves only to cloud the issue and muddy the waters ..

My results for any of the search terms referenced are different from those of someone who searches from 10 kms from me ..( and what we both get depends on what we searched prior to that"specific" ..and what our browser says about us etc etc ) ..GOOGS declared privacy policies notwithstanding ..( and not counting your local ISP's policy on subscriber profiling and whom they sell/share it with etc ) ..

What is so hard about joining the dots ( even if it is only between the various seemingly unrelated fora here )..and ignoring the FUD ? and why do so many people still believe that we all see the serps the same ( and thus that mentioning "generic" specifics ( such as Ms Spears ) is either relevant or dangerous )..and that what GOOG say or show is really other than public relations .

<aside ..one has to give them credit for managing to make even geeks who should know better think that PR means page rank and not public relations ..makes me think of Mr Lucas ..and "industrial" light and magic ..GOOG is "industrial smoke and mirrors"..but then they are admen with search bolted on ..and us admen make the most convincing liars of all ..especially when we dont appear to be putting our minds to the exercise /aside>

Now..where were we ? ..

Oh yeah ..angels and pins ...and serpy dancing ..

'cos anything is easier than looking at your logs , your outgoing packets, and learning to search from virgin ( or deliberately "coloured" and cleaned..and "recoloured" machines ) and via proxies ..

Spitting through your fingers and clicking your red shoes is also said to work ..as is reading chickens entrails ..although "the eficacity of the reading of chicken entrails may vary ..depending on your distance from Delphi" ..and the direction of the wind ..and as they say in Reading UK "can depend on the way your holding your mouth" ..or your proximity to Tilehurst treacle mines..

[signor_john]

It's good to be green. The greener the toolbar, the higher a page should rank in the organic search results, right?

[MLHmptn]

It's good to be green. The greener the toolbar, the higher a page should rank in the organic search results, right?

WRONG! I hope your kidding..?! 2004...yes...2009, not anymore.

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

Far from being specific, the terms I used in my example were actually meant to illustrate the presence of toolbar PR on the top results for a wide range of search terms. All I was saying was that all of those in the top five had good toolbar PR. Perhaps this is just a coincidence but I repeated the test using random words and once again they all had at least reasonable toolbar PR and none of them had less than PR3.

I don't profess to have the same knowledge about SEO as some of you on here and I freely admit that my test was far from scientific but to me the presence of PR on all of the top results in a random sample may be an indicator that it still plays some part.

(And I won't be going back to my 9-5 job BTW) ;)

[onepointone]

The presence of TBPR means there are incoming links. So obviously any high ranking site in a competitive area would have a decent TBPR. (over maybe 3?)

TBPR means something, of course, but there are people on forums that are selling domains that have PR5 which dont even rank for their own name. go figure.

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

Chicken and egg perhaps? ;)

[callivert]

there are people on forums that are selling domains that have PR5 which dont even rank for their own name

That just tells you that there are criteria under which pagerank doesn't apply (or conversely, there are "activation criteria" beyond pagerank to enter the SERPs).

[Wlauzon]

The green toolbar thingy is not totally useless, it seems to give a pretty good idea of the relative "page strength" on a single site. Besides, I have gotten used to seeing it, and it would leave a gap in my toolbar if it went away.