Forum Moderators: Robert Charlton & goodroi
[breitbart.com...]
MM
While it would of been very easy for Google to say we just won’t deal with China, they decided that some influence is better than none. As mentioned earlier in this thread it has to start out small.
Let’s face it, love China or hate them, if they stopped all trade with the US are economy would completely crumble. To many businesses rely on those cheap products. To suddenly have to pay 10x or more the cost to manufacture them, many businesses would fold. Just pick out a few items around the house and see where it is made. Like it or not, China has us right where they want is as far as trade and economy goes.
This is only an issue because it is something else for the media and Blogs to talk about.
I say good for Google!
While it would of been very easy for Google to say we just won’t deal with China, they decided that some influence is better than none.
<duck>
Here in the UK we have a similar attitude to the US.
</duck>
Wanna earn big time? Do business in China! Wanna do business in China? Gotta play by their rules!
Don't do evil ...
Right!
Let’s face it, love China or hate them, if they stopped all trade with the US are economy would completely crumble. To many businesses rely on those cheap products.
It isn't just cheap products. China is funding much of the U.S. deficit and the war in Iraq. If China stopped buying U.S. securities, the dollar would head south like a snowbird in winter.
If you isolate countries, you end up with places like North Korea.
This is just my theory of political evolution, and Im not trying to make a political statement, only try to rationalize what Google is trying to do. Hopefully I didn't cross the line.
In China, there are more than 1.3 billion population , and the number of the internet users is 0.1 billion which is 1/60 of world population. and the number is growing exponetially IMO. I know our communist goverment is kind of bad at human rights' issues etc. still they have to try to manage China well. And the communist party will definitely dislike content that is against them. becasue it may challenge their authorities.
E.G Porn, anti-communist,FA LUN GONG, Taiwan independency and human rights.
To my knowledge,just regarding to my personal life, something I can not do in China is that I can not go on the public and swear or compaint to the communist goverment. Anything else, I feel no much different from my 6 years experience living in NZ.
I think it is reasonable to censor some contents.
As long as it is not webmasterworld.com
Happy New Year. God bless.
Thoughts?
So, do you think you are smarter than Socrates? For god's sake people, just try and understand the other side's viewpoint before thinking that your view is the be all, end all.
Remember Dale Carnegie: You are never going to change anyone's view no matter how hard you try.
[edited by: tedster at 2:39 am (utc) on Jan. 28, 2006]
[edit reason] user request [/edit]
For example, if i live in Spain, with my boyfriend and we are married (same-sex marriage), i know i can not going to Marrocco (or USA) and kis him on the street because it's penalty.
you must respect local laws and customs.
Then when should we expect Google to open an office in Burma / Myanmar .. or could it really be about the $$$$?
>It isn't just cheap products. China is funding much of the U.S. deficit and the war in Iraq. If China stopped buying U.S. securities, the dollar would head south like a snowbird in winter.
Which would make US products and services more competitive with those from China?
No aspect of this issue is as simple as is being talked about here.:)
I'm quite convinced that this kind of threads on popular forums and articles in *independent* media are just an attempt to curb the harm done to US Government. The fact is MSN and Yahoo have surrendered to illegal demands, although they could have done what Google did and defend user privacy!
They are joined at the hip.
[forbes.com...]
"While removing search results is inconsistent with Google's mission, providing no information (or a heavily degraded user experience that amounts to no information) is more inconsistent with our mission," the company said in a statement. The Chinese do flock en masse to Google's site, and rumor has it that some have even found ways around the so-called "Great Firewall of China," using proxy servers.
[forbes.com...]
Google's claim that the subpoenas could reveal trade secrets is up for debate. Aitan Goelman, partner with the Washington, D.C.-based law firm of Zuckerman Spaeder, says he doubts the data the government is looking for would reveal how Google executes its searches. But he adds that a clever competitor could sift through the reports and might "be able to get from Point A to Point B and have insight into Google's methodologies."It's more likely that Google is worried about the results of its search queries and not the technology that powers them. The compromise the Department of Justice has worked out with Google's rivals calls for the search engines to let the government see how often certain search terms were used, but won't let it look up specific Internet Protocol addresses to what individuals looked for.
Wonder what this will do to Google's image... harm, yes, but how much.
Google's new motto (post IPO) will have to be "Don't be hypocritical" - but I guess that wouldn't work either... hmmm
How about:
- "Don't support free speech"
- "Don't worry, be happy"
- "Don't care, we've already made our money"
- "We can do whatever we want"
- "We hoped nobody would notice that we really embrace communism"
Will this post be allowed to stay, or will I be censored?
The US DOJ's demands that Google turn over the search results from 1000 "random" ip addresses so that it can find "proof" that we need to have a whole lot more tracking of what people do on the Internet in the US is a horse of an altogether different color. The US government traditionally picks on porno as the first place to impose control because there is virtually no one who will say, "Porno is good! Let's have more!" Just as they will strip civil rights from child molesters and "terrorists" first because there is no one who will stick up for them. And if it works with bogeymen like child molesters and terrorists and porno, then later it can be made to work with anyone and anything. It's all about precedent here.
If I credit Google with any scruples (and I am not sure if I credit any corporation with scruples, regardless of their motto), then I would have to say that their standing up to the DOJ about the porno info thing makes perfect sense in terms of "Don't be evil." Because the porno info thing is not just about limiting results. Ultimately, it is about tracking everyone's behavior on the internet. It's about making the search services and the ISPs become arms of our own secret police. Now that IS evil.
Not to mention not profitable.
is it giving people's names and ip addresses to the Chinese secret police?
A logical next step.
Do you really think they will say "no" to the Chinese govt when it demands this in the future?
A logical next step.
Not really.
I think there is enough china bashing political content in this thread to get webmasterworld banned in China :)
Exactly!
And that why it's such a shame that G caved on this ..
I'm really dissappointed that they sold out core freedom of speech in return for market share ..
If China's government was toppled this year and true democracy broke out .. and then those Billions of People knew that G sold them out of freedom of speech .. would those billions abondon them then?
How would you feel if you found out a truth like that? Would you continue to use that companies product/service?
If Google won't even tell publishers what share of Adsense revenue they are getting, how can you so unequivacally state (or even guess) what they may be prepared to tell the Chinese government. Google ain't tellin' you what they're doing no how, no way.
So how in the world can you tell us what they will or won't do?
I'm afraid Google just opened this up to all the governments. How can they give this control to China and refuse the same to other governments that say they must have the same tool in the interest of national security.
I bet that the US Administration is already requesting this tool for Homeland defense.
Keith
"miserable failure"
And:
"strong administrator and technocrat"
<?php
/*
Uses this file:
chinese apnic and arin blocks
www.okean.com/china.txt
*/
//config
$cookiebypass=1; //set a cookie on 'pass' to avoid delay for future checks
$onlygoogle=1; //only take effect for HTTP_REFERER from Google
//code
$willtest=1;
if (($cookiebypass)&&($_COOKIE['notinchina'])) $willtest=0;
if (($onlygoogle)&&(strpos(strtolower($_SERVER['HTTP_REFERER']),"google")===FALSE)) $willtest=0;
if ($willtest)
{
//if file > 48 hours old then get new copy
if (((time()-filemtime("china.txt"))>(3600*48))+(!file_exists("china.txt")))
{
if ($f=file_get_contents("http://www.okean.com/china.txt"))
{
$fh=fopen("china.txt","w");
fwrite($fh,$f);
fclose($fh);
}
}
//match all IP blocks
$n=preg_match_all("/([0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+) - ([0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+) /",file_get_contents("china.txt"),$m);
//compare as 'long form' IP
$userip=ip2long($_SERVER['REMOTE_ADDR']);
//loop through IPs
for ($a=0;$a<$n;$a++)
{
$start=ip2long($m[1][$a]);
$end=ip2long($m[2][$a]);
//if $start is defined and $start <= $end then test
if (($start)&&($start<=$end))
{
//if IP is in range then set $result="China"
if (($start<=$userip)&&($end>=$userip)) $result="China";
}
else error_log('Ethiblock:- Invalid IP range: '.$n[0][$a]);
}
if ($result=="China")
{
//Show whatever you want to people in China
print "Error message and/or page of content which 'should' be blocked";
//When message is sent, die() so that the original page is not executed
die();
}
else
{
//set a cookie worth a year to show that the user is not in china
if ($cookiebypass) setcookie("notinchina","1",time()+3600*24*365);
}
}
?>Put it in a file within a directory with write access for apache (777 will do!) - it should create a file called china.txt with the IP info it downloads. You can change the permissions on all but that file after first run. Add
<?php include('filename.php');?>Features:
- Cookie bypass to avoid repeating checks
- Only Google Referrer so that it only affects clicks from G
- Updates IP range list from www.okean.com/china.txt every 48 hours
I've put this on a couple of sites as a test and will add it to all in the fullness of time if there aren't problems.
As stopping users in China seeing your site might be almost as bad as what Google are doing, in 'Only Google Referrer' mode you can add a link on the error page to the page itself and that will allow the user to enter the site as normal - they just get the message each time they click in from Google.
I'm creating a message which explains why I have taken these steps, and that it is nothing against the Chinese users of the internet, but a protest against Google and the Censoring of sites such as BBC News. I also considered adding a library of pages about issues that are normally censored but thought that might be a bit too much!
<edit> Changed broken pipe (¦¦) to + for 'or' statement</edit>
Incredibly, Google.cn actually blocks/filters ***MORE*** than either Yahoo or MSN. Y! and MSN block politically-minded sites, as expected, but Google also blocks sites with references to homosexuality, alcohol, jokes, and sexual health.
This is an amazing, eye-opening article and I suggest that those of you who are interested in this on-going debate head over to cnet and read it.
First, for certain searches sensitive to the Chinese government, if Google had simply agreed to return NO results for those searches, then they would be engaging in censorship. Correct?
But, if my reading is correct, that's not the case. They ARE returning sites whose content on those sensitive topics are "government approved," which could be construed as aiding the Chinese government in the distribution of propaganda. Strike two?
However, having said that, I still have faith in these people at Google, and I think (and hope) that there's more at work here than meets the eye. IOW, why waste time trying to beat down the front door when you can simply walk in through the back door.
