Forum Moderators: Robert Charlton & goodroi
What percentage of search users typing in the keyword "jewelry", are searching for historical facts on the subject written by some juvenile
I don't know, but what I do know is that Google's algorithm will demote and promote sites based on their click-throughs.
(thats what i've been thinking also)
If you read Google's mission statement, it becomes clear that, in cases of doubt, Google should err on the side of information, not some retailer's product listing. (After all, Froogle exists for people who want to shop.)
**yawn**
If they want to BUY something, they type in "buy jewelry" "jewelry sales" or something to that effect. Perhaps not, but after using search engines a few times, people figure out that they need to be a bit more specific when they search, or they get too wide of a range in the results to dig through.
And at the bottom of the page:
Searches related to: jewelry
Clicking on one of those options leads to mostly e-commerce sites.
As per the above thread, it seems wiki is using "no-follow" so kiss the PR boast from it goodbye.
That being said, well placed, no spam links in wiki WILL generate you a decent amount of traffic.
I had lots of fans put me in there, never entered myself there, not even once, but I see it in my logs, it is a respectable amount of traffic... Just don't expect any PR from it anymore, at least for a while. They have caught on that spammers are using it, so as the world responds to the parasite spammers, so we must all suffer...
The wikipedia thing is a hell of a big deal for a lot of industries.
Look at it this way. Let's say I have a mainstream blog, and I want to mention an "iffy" subject. I won't like to an "iffy" website, I'll like to Wikipedia for more information on this "iffy" topic. In fact, it's kind of cute and funny to do so. So for the "iffy" topics, wikipedia is very quickly dominating the top of the SERPs. The way Google works, this effect is likely to intensify over time, not lessen. It's not old news, it's something completely new and annoying as all get-out.
If anything, it's in G's self-interest to NOT let wiki rank for anything.
Certainly no adsense on any of those pages....
Why Google's algo has not banned Wiki?
Surely, any other website which gets so many links so quickly, and links out to soooo many spam websites would have been banned a long time ago, I mean, if you search around, there is software for re-posting your links on Wiki, and the spammers are using it. So, if Google stays true to what has been said, and the websites rank according to the algo - why is Wiki still around? It's clear that Google manually has turned off all kinds of filters just for Wiki, so they must have a good financial reason to do so.
I could probably get a million link to my website by the end of the year, but would Google let me roam around like that? I dont think so - that's Net Un-neutrality at its best.
I personally think that it's stupid and un-google-like to have one website ranking in the top 10 for EVERY page they have.
It's clear that Google manually has turned off all kinds of filters just for Wiki, so they must have a good financial reason to do so.
Or maybe they just think (as a lot of people do) that Wikipedia is a genuinely useful site, nd they know perfectly well (as any rational person does) that Wikipedia isn't running a spam network.
I could probably get a million link to my website by the end of the year, but would Google let me roam around like that? I dont think so
Yes, but what kind of links would those be? How many of those links would be "natural" citations (say, from schools or information sites)?
For most of the searches that I do (and I use search a lot), any Wikipedia page that comes up in the top 10 is likely to be a page with real information and--as a bonus--with citations that link to other Wikipedia pages or to useful third-party sites. Should Wikipedia pages be penalized simply because there are so many of them?
Actually, a lot of people searching on terms like "jewelry" are searching for information, not to buy something.
This thread is about the poor usability factor of Wikipedia for certain search terms, not information as a whole, reread. Are you suggesting that most people searching for the keyword "jewelry", are interested in finding historical facts on the subject? Having worked in the online jewelry industry for the last 5 years, I beg to differ. According to 5 years worth of referral stats from Google, generic words like "jewelry", "bracelets", "necklaces", "pendants", etc, have an insanely high conversion ratio. AdWords rates for these generic terms back my claim up 100%. I can say conclusively that most people typing in the keyword "jewelry", are looking to buy. I have virtually zero keyword referrals from Google like "buy jewelry", etc. I get thousands of visitors per day, so the traffic spectrum is there to further suport this point.
Now, if they're searching for a specific jewelry product--such as "widgetco chronograph--maybe that's a different story.
According to Google trends and OVT reports, obscure widget + generic based keywords searches [e.g. widegetco + pendants] are not used much in this sector, expect for well known brands like Tiffany. In the case of jewelry, most search users are not search savvy, and tend to search for broad based generic terms, again my referral stats back this claim.
If you read Google's mission statement, it becomes clear that, in cases of doubt, Google should err on the side of information, not some retailer's product listing.
Google should "err" on the side of relevance + usability, regardless of whether or not the page is informational or commerce based, in the case of wikipedia, they do not. For some searches, wikipedia has a high usability factor, for others such as ecommerce type terms, it does not. I think your point of view is biased because you sell information.
(After all, Froogle exists for people who want to shop.)
I know hundreds of non net savvy users that make regular online purchases, not one of them knows Froogle even exist. These people also make up the majority of internet users if you do your research.
[edited by: tedster at 8:36 am (utc) on Jan. 22, 2007]
This thread is about the poor usability factor of Wikipedia for certain search terms, not information as a whole, reread.
Actually, this is about "Google + W]ikipedia = Higher AdWords Profits," which you also expressed as:
I am firmly convinced that Wikipedia is becoming a cornerstone in Google's strategy of keeping AdWords ctr rates on the increase.
Google should "err" on the side of relevance + usability, regardless of whether or not the page is informational or commerce based
It isn't that simple, because "relevance" and "usability" are in the eye of the beholder. Plus, if you've been around here any length of time, you should understand that the concept of user "votes" (as expressed via PageRank) has been part of the Google algorithm since day one. If PageRank and subsequent concepts like TrustRank give more credibility to large information sites like Wikipedia that have millions of legititimate, "natural" inbound links, that's just how Google is supposed to work. It's unrealistic to think that Google will shed its mission or its fundamental principles, just because its SERPs aren't delivering the results that you or other merchants consider to be relevant.
I know hundreds of non net savvy users that make regular online purchases, not one of them knows Froogle even exist. These people also make up the majority of internet users if you do your research.
Are you suggesting that Google should change the focus of Google Search just because Froogle isn't used by enough people (or sending you enough traffic)?
[edited by: tedster at 8:36 am (utc) on Jan. 22, 2007]
I can say conclusively that most people typing in the keyword "jewelry", are looking to buy.
Yeah, and Google knows exactly the same thing, probably in much more detail. That's why it returns mostly sales sites.
But, according to you, if Google throws in one informational result -- one -- for the few folks who aren't looking to buy and you see this as "a cornerstone in Google's strategy of keeping AdWords ctr rates on the increase"? I think that's a pretty long reach. Sound more like G is trying to satisfy the broadest possible user base.
Google has a little knob it can turn (not sure what color this one is), that adjusts the mix of types of sites returned for a query. If as you say the overwhelming majority of searches for "jewelry" are for buying, then it appears that G has this knob set just about right.
When it becomes too dominant, which I don't think it is just yet, almost but not quite, then we should worry.
But in the meantime, given that they are starting their own little search engine, I don't think they'll be in such high regard for too much longer and we can all find the next goat to whip.
<if domain in (yahoo, msn, wiki)>
< pr(adjusted) = pr - 1 >
</if>
[edited by: tedster at 8:37 am (utc) on Jan. 22, 2007]
Wiki's article titled "jewellery" showing up in the 4th position for the keyword "jewelry" isn't appropriate, and it's undeserved. It's search spam at it's best, and it's just one example out of many. Millions of people have linked to the domain wikipedia.org because the site covers every subject known to man, and has millions of web pages. Just because they have some established trust for certain topics, doesn't mean they are an authority on every single topic conceivable. Implying this is ridiculous. Google could correct this problem very easily, but they choose not to. The question is why. If not for financial gain, then what?
I'm a Google search user, and I'm tired of hitting wiki articles for every search phrase I enter, and the problem isn't getting any better, it's getting worse. I'm not competing with wiki at the moment for any search terms, I am raising this issue strictly from a search users perspective. Wiki at best is a collage of half fact, half misinformation. Why does Google continue to propagate this sort of thing if not for their own strategic interests? If this sort of observation / question equates to pushing the common sense envelope, then I think you are extremely disillusioned.
Ask yourself a very simple question, if wikipedia commercialized their website, how tolerant would you then be to their presence on the net? Just because there aren't adsense ads slapped on each page, doesn't mean it isn't spam.
Wiki is actually pretty useful too for the odd bit of research and blabber about a subject I want to know more about. My friend is even in there...now how to get myself in.
Fly a balloon on fire across the Atlantic?
Swim the coast of Southern Africa with 2 dead fish attached to my legs?
Compose a 6 hour No.1 hit on Rock radio?
Hmmm, where do I start...
"Wikipedia, the online, reader-edited encyclopedia, honored the 750th anniversary of American independence on July 25 with a special featured section on its main page Tuesday...
The special anniversary tribute refutes many myths about the period and American history. According to the entry, the American Revolution was in fact instigated by Chuck Norris, who incinerated the Stamp Act by looking at it, then roundhouse-kicked the entire British army into the Atlantic Ocean. A group of Massachusetts Minutemaids then unleashed the zombie-generating T-Virus on London, crippling the British economy and severely limiting its naval capabilities..."
Or maybe they just think (as a lot of people do) that Wikipedia is a genuinely useful site, nd they know perfectly well (as any rational person does) that Wikipedia isn't running a spam network.Yes, but what kind of links would those be? How many of those links would be "natural" citations (say, from schools or information sites)?
That does not matter, the fact is that even though Google says that its search results are not manipulated by humans, and rely 100% on the algo, it is clear that it's not true.
It is unfair to give a website an advantage - if Wiki is a good website - let them compete just like any other website, and let them feel the burn of getting banned.
Nestle is a great company with many good products - but do you want all food products in the world to be made by Nestle?
Do you want every single city in the world to have Walmart - they have great prices and better selection than any other store in the town, but ...
That does not matter, the fact is that even though Google says that its search results are not manipulated by humans, and rely 100% on the algo, it is clear that it's not true
Again, you're missing the point. Wiki has NOT been "manipulated" to the top of the SERPS.
It's simply Math.
I followed the "path" of Wiki and have commented on their "rise" for several months now.
Wiki went thru the same "sandbox" filters when they suddenly had gobs of links(i think it was a million or so) pop up virtually overnight.
Soon after, all the "niche" people were complaining about wiki dominating their "long tail" searches.
Cut to 6-12 months later with 31 million links and an EXCELLENT internal linking structure and you have wiki Mathematically ranking for broad one word keywords like "jewelry".
Sorry, but it's simply math... the same math that allows spammers to rank, Amazon to rank, and your niche site to rank.
The fact that wiki IS dominating shows the impartiality of the results. Math has a way of being impartial like that. :)
[edited by: tedster at 8:39 am (utc) on Jan. 22, 2007]
Wikip articles across the board are pretty bad, and that's just one subject.
Ok so you DO want human intervention then?
I'm confused...
Bots and algos can't read nor evaluate "good" content vs. "bad" content.
I haven't seen any evidence to support that hypothesis. Has anyone? [Sorry, but merely saying that some Wikipedia pages are "crap" doesn't count. :-)]
Cut to 6-12 months later with 31 million links and an EXCELLENT internal linking structure and you have wiki Mathematically ranking for broad one word keywords like "jewelry".
And you have millions of links out to spammy websites - mathematically - Wiki should have been banned a long time ago, unless human intervention did turned off filters.
And on another note - how would you feel if Dictionary was ranking in the top 10 for every word?!? I mean, the page will be 100% on topic, great content etc.
Wiki is just another half-arse website trying to dominate the Internet based purely on hype. There is maybe 1% true and usefull content on Wiki, and that's a fact.
And you have millions of links out to spammy websites - mathematically - Wiki should have been banned a long time ago, unless human intervention did turned off filters
You seem to have bought into the Google propanganda machine that there are "bad neighborhoods" and that you get banned for linking to them.
I've never seen any proof of this.
And on another note - how would you feel if Dictionary was ranking in the top 10 for every word?!? I mean, the page will be 100% on topic, great content etc
First, it doesn't matter how i "feel". I understand the math so I can choose replicate it or not.
The reason Dictionary.com is NOT ranking for every term is the same reason Wiki IS...The math. lol. Don't know how much clearer I can make that. Give Dictionary 38 million links and they would rank too.(albeit, not as well...bad internal linking and all)
Wiki is just another half-arse website trying to dominate the Internet based purely on hype
Lol, i would say the same about G. But that has nothing to do with this discussion nor is it relevant to why they are ranking...
