Forum Moderators: Robert Charlton & goodroi
This is about Google and affiliate marketing. I will explain some details of the issue before I present it. I have screen shots and other facts to support this posting but I do not want to share them here for reason that will become obvious as you read this.
First let me say the manufacturer of the product that is affiliate marketed has always let the affiliates do the marketing. The manufacturer recently added direct sales to its web site. They still allowed the affiliates to do the marketing and did not compete in the search engine market place with affiliates. In fact, they sell the product at the same price as the affiliates. They have the right to change any of that but that is not what this is about. They are a billion dollar company and I am one of their top 10 producers.
That said, I have a site that has been 1 on Google in several keywords since 1998. The keyword is not a trademark or product name of the manufacturer. The web site adds value to the customer and offers a couple of other choices from other manufacturers. Our site is highly ranked and has a good reputation. It has deep content of value to the customer. We follow all of Google's guidelines and rules.
Now let me explain what I want to discuss with you.
Google changed the order of many of "our" keyword results right after labor day at the beginning of holiday buying season. They inserted the manufacturer of the products into position 1 in all keyword catagories used by all of their affiliates including me. They moved me to number 6 in my keyowrd search results. This happened overnight.
My #1 listings at MSN were not affected. Yahoo followed Google's lead a couple of weeks later but only demoted me to 2nd place.
There is a second issue. Google changed the keyword bid prices at the same time as the search results shuffle. This was before the recent Adword quality ranking that drives keyword prices up for poorly rated link farm affiliate sites.
The manufacturer affiliate network has 60,000 members worldwide. Many of them are not fortunate to have first place listings in Google and have to use PPC. When the manufacturer moved to number 1 in all affiliate keyword catagories Google also increased the price to bid on the same keywords. The price was increased above a price you can pay to have a profit margin with the manufacturer's products. Remember I have high quality sites; even though we do not use PPC I checked the keywords and they were high for us also. All affiliates - good sites or bad - had very high keyword minimum bids. Some as high as TEN DOLLARS per click on a 7.00 commission product. Why did keyword prices skyrocket at the same time as the search results shuffle?
We were all effectivly cut out of the holiday buying season. I did not have it as bad as others who rely on PPC but my income was reduced by 50%. Many affiliates tried the higher bid prices but were not able to make a living that way.
This type of behavior could be interpeted as evidence that Google is manipulating search results to help certain companies sell products. Does Google want to be the Sears and Robuck catalogue for the world? Are they doctoring the search results to second guess what you are looking for and offering a product you MIGHT be looking for. If so, we need to make them admit it so the public will know what to expect when using Google.
Google and the manufacturer of the products in question have a responsibility to their stockholders to make the most profit they can muster. Did Google cross the line and manipulate search results? This will harm the stockholders if their reputation is tarnished.
Have any of you experienced a similar situation during the recent holiday buying season from labor day to christmas? No conspiracy theories please. Just the facts.
Seasons greeting to you all,
trotline
Again, if you know what you want to buy and know the manufacturer's name, please feel free to go directly to their web site by typing in their company or product name.
Let me suggest this, let's quit using the word "affiliate" and use the words "reputable retailer". Like any retailer that sells an variety of high quality goods. Land's End comes to mind as one example.
Google is second guessing which product you want and helping the manufacturer take over a market.
With all due respect, this is really the fundamental mistake in your thinking on this situation. It’s easy to do, and all of us have done it at some point or another; you’re taking this personally. There is no “Google” like the little guy behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. The way results get presented to the user is extremely complex, and their approach generally is not site, or product, or key word specific. The possibility that there has been some sort of conspiracy regarding your site, and the manufacturer’s site as the reason for the shift, I would put down as the absolute least plausible explanation.
More likely is that the manufacturer has made some alterations to their site. Some evidence of this is that you said their position also rose in Yahoo a bit as well.
My #1 listings at MSN were not affected. Yahoo followed Google's lead a couple of weeks later but only demoted me to 2nd place.
For a long time now independent guys with sites have been more successful at driving traffic for particular products than the actual manufacturer of the product. I can attest to this from personal experience. Nothing has amazed me more than looking at a web site from a billion dollar a year company and seeing blatant canonical issues or not having the name of the product they sell in the title.
However, the times they are a changing and these guys are finally either hiring guys in house, or going out and hiring reputable SEM companies. Many of these sites would jump in ranking dramatically with just some minor alterations. Typically they have so much going for them already from high page rank to loads of quality back links.
I would suggest two more likely reasons for the change over a concerted effort by Google to drop your site and elevate theirs.
1.The manufacturer has finally begun to inject some optimization into their nicely aged, authoritative site.
2.The Google algorithm, in general and affecting all sites, has shifted ever so slightly resulting in a more favorable view of their site and a less favorable view of yours, which happens every day in some form or another.
Is it possible the Wizard of Google decided to raise their site and punish yours because when he bellowed “Who goes there?” you answered “an Affiliate”?
I guess, but the more time you spend fixated on that as the answer the less time you’re spending figuring out what most likely did cause it, and taking steps to get back on top.
Manufacturers are having the impact that you mentioned. Many of them coming on board this year.
Evidently when Google asked "Who goes there?" They did not hear affiliate since they left us highly placed in the serp. We have tried hard over the years to build web sites of high quality. We have followed Google's guidelines before Google was created.
We have moved on. I just an writing to see if it happened to others and what their take on the issue is.
As proven in physics, organized chaos is more useful that orderly systems. I hope Google is not trying the orderly systems route. Their math gurus that control the algos need to look hard at the impact of their actions. Do the testing in an off season.
a multi-product affiliate, should rank higher in the serps than a single product affiliate. the exceptions' to this are the sites in which added usable "relative" content is produced.
for example : hotels
a simple affiliate site would have 20 hotels for an area and then use the content that comes from the hotel. ( bottom serps )
the better affiliate has the same 20, but post reviews
the much better has the same 20, post reviews, then adds the walking distance, personal photo's ...
the best and top ranking should be the hotel itself.
in other-words value added content not generated by a machine or the media, but by a human with their own point of view, should be near or at the top.
I hope my comments brings more debate and the possibility of proving me incorrect. I currently believe this hypothesis and based on some very basic research I feel that I am on track to something very good.
We have been on the web since 1998. Tens of thousands of people trust us. We do over 1 mil a year.
Here in germany, there are around 10 of these sites. All of them are "legitimate". These sites dominate(d) the serps for about every product on earth. It was impossible to find any other info because these redundant sites took the places 1-50. Even when looking for "product driver problem" you only got these affiliates.
The only solution I see would be to be asked by google what category of information (e-commerce, review, technical info) one is looking for.
I would appreciate some checkboxes:
[x] no affiliates
[x] no shops
[x] no "reviews"
MojoMike, Good stuff. I will ponder it for a while. Except hotels is generic. The BEST directory should be first. Hotels first in their brand names.
Plasma, You have us confused with sites that are horizontal marketers. IE they sperad out over every market with shallow, manufacturer content. We are vertical marketers. We are in one specific market with some good products. We do not do other markets. I like your idea of check boxes on the search engine. Add "No Manufacturers"and "No Blogs" as an option.
I fail to see how your site is rightfully #1 for whatever search terms you target, and I fail to see any evidence for your claim that Google is selling SERP placements.
Let me suggest this, let's quit using the word "affiliate" and use the words "reputable retailer". Like any retailer that sells an variety of high quality goods. Land's End comes to mind as one example.
From your description, you are not a "reputable retailer". You are an affiliate advertiser. A retailer is someone that actually sells the products of a manufacturer. You are just passing the person to the seller.
my discourse was basis of very narrow brand specific.
Mojomike
I don't have an affiliate site but have seen the push for manufacturer sites in the serps since around the time you mentioned. We deal in the secondary market and sell products no longer available from manufacturers. Still those manufacturer sites are often returned No. 1 in the serps for products not listed on their sites. This sacrifices serp quality especially since those manufacturers do not/will not refer their visitors to the secondary market sites.
The internet is perfect for manufacturers to go retail. It's just a shame so many of them used affiliates to learn how to do it. I think europeforvisitors gave good advice.
In this conversation it is important to accept the fact we are not among the thousands of link based affiliate sites that have cropped up in the last year or so. Without any proof you have to accept what I say the we are an old time legacy retailer on the Internet who adds much value to the buying experience. That is the foundation of this thread.
I am avoiding the word affiliate since it has become synonymous with link farm. Yes we do forward them to the manufacturer for purchase. That is the new business model for online retail. No inventory needed. Just in time manufacturing. Our site is full of relevant information the manufacturer can't provide.
Yes, the manufacturers sites are legit and I expect to see more of them enter the market. It's going to be easy for the ones who can take over a market an affiliate built. Many retailers are going to loose but, hey, that's the Internet. Other manufacturers will let the dealers (affiliates) do the marketing and not do retail.
However, in my humble opinion, here is where it has crossed the line. They moved the manufacturers to no. 1 in keywords that have been built up by affiliates, many of whom run legit stores. None of the keywords I refer to are trademarks or company names. They did this overnight at the beginning of the Christmas buying season.
It did not happen to every affiliate program, just a few who's manufacturers decided to enter the market and take over their affiliate positions. Was it a deliberate act? Probably yes to the degree that new new algo was taliored to do just that and the companies reworked their sites to fit the algo. Probably no in the sense that Google targeted specific affiliates.
We saw such a dramatic change overnight at first we assumed Google had started a program for manufacturers, contacted ones that were candidates for this and helped them. If you think for a minute and have ever worked in large companies you can see Google is so big one department could have been charged with this mission and others at Google entirely unaware of it. It makes sense. Google is responsible to the stockholders not the users. It would increase profits for Google (increased PPC) and the manufacturer to ambush everyone right after labor day. However we have dismissed this as speculation and initial reaction jibberish.
Let's try to put this in perspective.
Many retailers lost when Walmart showed up. But that's where the similarity ends. Walmart sells brands from many manufacturers. Not one manufacturer takes over a Walmart location by bulldozing the building and putting the company store there. They do not even build a company store next to a Walmart. They respect the retailer and the work they put into helping build the brand name.
From this discussion I can see some people are very passionate that they think every purchase they make should be from a manufacturer and do not want to see dealer sites that handle many different manufacturers. I assume they never visit a grocery store or a Walmart. Their food comes from farmers and all goods come direct from the manufacturer. It sounds like a lot of work to me. As I said, that is your choice. Many, and I mean many, people had rather visit a dealer site with a good reputation who is familiar with all the products and can steer them to the correct product.
We operate a legit online store. We use affiliate programs for most but not all of our offerings. We worked had for almost 10 years to develop the keywords we use. We were harmed by the manufacturer's decision. It appears Google's algo helped them.
I am just looking for some discussion on the topic and the fine webmasters on this board have jumped in and discussed it. Thanks to all who have provided input so far.
Best to you,
trotline
I have a similar situation brewing (from the other side); I'm currently writing a new web store for a tool manufacturer who hitherto has relied solely on dealers and distributors for sales. They're going to be in the position of competing with all these dealers and distributors for sales (and search engine positioning) of their own products. It'll be interesting, to say the least.
Not the same analogy. Walmart owns the distribution chanel. A manufacturer cannot push them out of a physical space even if in connivence with local authorities. *They* are the brand, not the manufacturers. Just like Google. People go to Walmart to shop (some do). Kill Walmart and people will drive another 30 miles to find the next shop. Even if "Foresters working boots" opens their store at the closed Walmart. It is Walmart who chooses whom to do business with and not the other way around. You were not the distribution chanel, Google is. You -and myself and others- just had a small shelf space for as long as it lasted.
Even if there were conversations going on with say, large adsense publishers or content owners/manufacturers that can provide ad space on and offline (magazines) not much can be done. Just relying on a change of heart.
[edited by: obono at 10:01 pm (utc) on Dec. 27, 2006]
Ditto!
"Google is a distribution channel." I think you hit on what the new Google is striving to be: a distribution channel. (along with being everything to everybody)
I am looking at Google as a popular culture media outlet (based on keyword popularity) not a distribution channel for manufacturers. I can see how manufacturers could see it that way. I say fine, create a search engine for manufacturers. Froogle claims to be for manufacturers but it appears the concept was corrupted by affiliates.
No wonder some countries are taking steps to oust Google. It appears on the surface they are trying to "take over the world". Move over Pinky and the Brain, you have competition.
Remember, Google is responsible to it's stockholders, not the users. They are going to build a "profitable" service no matter what they say in public.
The idea that ranking bigger sites ahead of smaller sites is "harm" is a strong late entry for worst concept of the year.
If you read the thread with care you will see that a lot of legitimate web sites are harmed when the manufacturer decides to take over the business the affiliate has built.
There are several people who have experienced this in the thread. The Labor Day shuffle on Google to put manufacturers in the serps replacing affiliates was very real. The coincidence that "quality score" and PPC increases occurred at the same time deserves exploring.
We have admitted that Google's intent may have been honest but had impact on people who they did not intend to harm. On the other hand the manufacturer's intent WAS to do harm, but at the same time make more revenue as their stockholders expect them to do. Both events occurred simultaneously at the beginning of the main selling season without any time for those who were harmed to make any adjustments.
The ambush worked. The problem is the participants will always be suspect and their reputation is harmed. Dealers will be reluctant to participate with them next year.
The thread is about figuring out what role Google plays in the scene and if they did actively participate why they would be involved with "doing harm".
best,
trotline
1. Manufacturer (Most of the time they have all the info that a person would want to read.
2. Place to purchase the product (That might be the manufacturer)
3. Non Biased review, such as consumer report, blog, message board
4. Affiliates
The manufacturer screwed you, there is nothing you can really do about it since the average searcher wants to see serps like that.
1> A site that offers a variety of items that I am shopping for. If they sell it I will gladly click through their link and let them make a commission for helping me.
2> A manufacturer site where I can see product descriptions, data sheets and product specs.
I take issue with Blogs being a source of reliable information for shopping. The opinions there are not always objective. If you are shopping with a reliable retailer you are getting reviews, product comparisons, etc. Their reputation is on the line for reliable advice.
I am very suspect of a manufacturer that can get an authority position under "toasters" when many others manufacture toasters. Additionally, if all the serps have is manufacturers of toasters, I do not find the results any more useful than serps crowded with thin affiliates.
I do not want to go through many manufacturer sites making notes and comparing products on my own. I have better things to do with my time. A trusted retailer has already done that for me.
Thanks for contributing to the conversation but it is not about wheather you prefer to purchase form a manufacturer or affiliate. It is about the "new" Google and what it means to legit retailers.
If Google wants to organize the serps to maximize benefit to manufacturers fine with me. Just call it what it is: An index of manufacturers.
best,
trotline
the conversation... is about the "new" Google and what it means to legit retailers.
From where I'm sitting this thread is about you dropping a few positions and trying to turn it into vastly more than it is. A whole new Google, Google selling out it's integrity, etc.
You do not have a right to that #1 position, even if you have held it since 1998 (which you keep saying, even though Google was such a nonplayer at that time that it's amazing you kept a record of that fact). You've barely even tried to make the case that your site is a better choice than the current #1.
The place where you can shop for products should be froogle/googlebase. That is where google likes to steer eccomerce types of sites and even affiliates.
Do a search on google for "elmo tmx", the hot seller.
First positions are sponsored searches
Second position is google/froogle base which is for free
Then you get the rest of the serps.
Want to get listed above the manufacturer, advertise on base/froogle.
It brings our ten sites a lot more traffic than position one in the natural serps.
If Google wants to organize the serps to maximize benefit to manufacturers fine with me. Just call it what it is: An index of manufacturers.
But Google isn't "an index of manufacturers." It's an index of information. That's why, for example, a search on "digital whatsits" will normally return a list of major whatsit-review sites and maybe a Wikipedia article on digital whatsits. If you want to rank well for "digital whatsits," there's a simple (though not necessarily easy) solution: Build a "best of breed" site about digital whatsits that acquires authority status through range and quantity of content on the topic, inbound links from quality sites, etc. But why waste bandwidth by condemning Google for trying to fulfill its stated corporate mission? Google Search has never pretended to be a comparison-shopping guide.
This is not about me. My example is held out there for others to compare their experiences to. Apparently I am not the only one caught up in the holiday shuffle. We do very well without Google. To clarify we have been on the net since 1998 and 1 in Google since they got going good.
No one owns a no. 1 position. We worked years to get and maintain ours. We were bumped immediately after labor day in favor of the manufacturer of our best selling product for the peak selling season. What a coincidence. Others were bumped at the same time under the same conditions. Another coincidence? At the same time Google bumped up PPC rates and it is taking the rest of the selling season to adjust. Another coincidence? All these folks were "harmed".
Manufacturers deserve the keyword they have trademarked. They should be first in those searches even if all they have is a basic site. They do not own the other keywords and should get no special treatment. If they have decided to take over markets developed by their retailers it is their reputation that is one the line. (hence this discussion)
I am not condemning Google. I respect their publicly stated mission. As I have said, they have a responsibility to the stock holders and they are doing a good job (so far). If they have helped with the Labor Day shuffle it is their reputation on the line. (hence this discussion)
europeforvisitors, You have made my point for me. Google is NOT a comparison shopping site. A list of manufacturers at the top of a keyword is not a service to me. (personal opinion) I prefer a reputable retailer. I can visit manufacturer sites by typing in their name. Most reputable retailers have links to the manufacturers.
As I say, it will take a while to adjust the algo. If they get it smoothed out it will reflect the market place, not be slanted to any manufacturer.
Folks, on the Internet the only constant is change. This discussion is not a rant about me and my situation. I discuss it as an example to base the conversation. I am just trying to figure out the latest changes that effected many retailers during their main selling season.
thanks again,
trotline
Maybe this would have the side benefit of training the searcher to refine his/her search to what they REALLY want, i.e.
'product' reviews
'product' comparisons
'product' coupons
cheapest 'product'
'product' problems
'product' news, etc.
Searches which might be fullfilled by an affiliate or adsense funded site.
One of our sites promotes a small subset of brands in an otherwise overwhelming market of brands selling similar products
For years, we'd rank at the very top, just below the manufacturer(s), even with some selling directly to the public. This high ranking was for both specific brand related keywords and unique products which carried the brand name.
Where are we now? Maybe #20 to 100. What has replaced us? The big mega-shopping sites: biz***, am***n, deal****, etc etc.
Assumption: G is obviously using this new algo (or tweak) to put such sites ranked at the top so they can promote GBase and Froogle?
I doubt very much if they considered the impact on small businesses such as us. My guess is it was a strategy to benefit G and it was well executed!
Sorry maybe I have internet torrets but "what the #*$! are you on about"!
We are talking about google heightened relevence to keyword in domain that I believe is being used to protect brand names in a pathetic attempt by google to ward off plaintiffs on upcomming cases of identity theft that they will surely loose.
I am avoiding the word affiliate since it has become synonymous with link farm. Yes we do forward them to the manufacturer for purchase. That is the new business model for online retail. No inventory needed. Just in time manufacturing. Our site is full of relevant information the manufacturer can't provide.
This is not a new model for online retail. What portion of the transaction do you handle? Do you process the payment? Ship the product? Handle returns? What if I have a problem with the product?
At best, an afiliate is a commission sales person at a car dealer. They range from the used car salesmen to the high end sales person at a BMW or Jaguar dealer, but they are not the retailer, the dealership is the retailer. And like any commission sales person, I can't really consider them to be an objective source of comparison information. There is too much of a chance that they will be pushing the products that they will get the best commission from. I wouldn't be surprised if Google felt the same way.
Also, we aren't talking about a huge lose in position here. You said you are in the fifth to sixth position for one of your main keywords. I bet a lot of people here would love to be on the first page of the results for their key terms. I bounce around in the top five positions for a number of terms with my main competators. I really don't pay a whole lot of attention to it, I just keep adding new work and trying to expand my site. I'll let Google sort itself out over time.
It is obvious that there is a vocal group that does not like to purchase from retail or affiliates and wants to shop directly from the manufacturer. They have bad experiences with disreputable salespersons or stores. They have probably never met an honest retailer. They don't seem to hear what is said to them by me and a few others.
It is fine for them to go directly to manufacturers. If they think they are an authority on everything and like to spend their time doing research it is THEIR choice.
Then there are others who prefer to stop at a atore and have a retailer who wants to have a good reputation help them with their purchase.
This is a no brainer folks. Shop where you want to shop. If you get ripped off you can be ripped by anyone with a bad rep. Manufacturer or retailer.
On the next issue of whether I operate a legit retail store of do I just have affiliate link farms. This is not about me. My example is held out as an example of what the thread is about. I do not want to get involved in the difficult task of defining words that are being used to describe the Internet. Affiliate, retailer, etc. If you are dealing with an honest seller it doesn't matter what their label is. I made it clear several times that I was holding the example out as an example. I said for the purposes of discussion we would have to accept the description of the business as "a honest retail store with many value added services". That said, many have not accepted it as the basis of the discussion.
Back to the thread issues:
The labor Day shuffle was poorly timed for those of us who have to make an HONEST living. It harmed many people in legit businesses.
The conversation is about Google's role in the Labor Day shuffle at the beginning of buying season and how some of us took the entire season up trying to fix things.
As a valid related side topic is how some manufacturers are stepping roughshod over their affiliates who have worked hard to build a business. They could never do that to brick and mortar stores. The ones that do tarnish their reputation as honest folks to do business with. The relationship between a manufacturer at best is a handshake and partnership. Those are sacred things around here. Plotting against someone you have that relationship with reeks of dishonesty.
The affiliate vs. retailer vs. manufacturer horse is dead. Shop where you want to shop and leave this thread alone. Please go elsewhere to have this conversation.
Get back to the topic please. And if you are keeping up you know it has evolved. Did Google sell keywords? Of course not. Did they artificially boost manufacturers to the top of keyword listings and harm many legit folks? It really happened. Did PPC prices go through the roof at the same time? It really happened.
We all know Google was purging thin affiliates at the time. That job would have better been done during the summer before the shopping season so the algo could be tweaked while things were slow. Waiting until after Labor Day is poor timing. Was that due to youth and inexperience at Google? Probably.
Finally, Google held this issue out themselves: Did it harm people who otherwise had done nothing to deserve it? At our shop the answer is yes, harm was done. The question is " How did it effect participants in this forum?"
The thread is about figuring out Google's role in the Labor Day and Xmas debacle and how the webmaster community views it.
Thanks,
trotline
