Forum Moderators: Robert Charlton & goodroi
1. One of my domains, a 6 year old pioneering website with lots of pages of semi-unique content with a reasonably good PR dropped from receiving approximately 40 thousand users a day to somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 thousand within a month and a half of adding a sitemap to Google base. I experienced somewhat similar fluctuations with other domains.
2. I have been attempting to gain the "trust" of Google for over two years with one of my sites to no avail. Sites that have existed at the top remain at the top and new sites that show up appear to be pushed there almost entirely by artificial Myspace and blog links that are created entirely for the purpose of promoting the website in question.
3. Google's "filters" have become self-defeating: They have, according to me, passed the threshold that all "policing" must be wary of... policing and being so adamantly geared towards removing crime that they clearly, clearly are knocking off lots and lots of innocents on the way. The primary method in which they have done this and continue to do this is penalize new sites for being new.
4. As a result of most of the above, their search engine results are no more relevant than Yahoo or MSN. In fact, most keyword searches on Google lead to a smorgasbord of keyword stuffed URLs, Titles, and descriptions that all say the exact same thing giving the user absolutely no diversity. Therefore, despite its attempts at policing bad websites, its algorithm is still manipulated. In a lame attempt to offset this, it creates "authority" websites such as Amazon or Ebay and stuffs those results in as they are most likely non-spam. This results in exactly what we see: Results that contain listings or sub sites from the same authority domains + spammy results that clearly found the sweet spot in manipulating Google results.
5. As a company, their business decisions have been poor. Their purchase of YouTube for the exorbitant price they paid was the beginning (in my opinion) of their desperate need to try to be innovative. Froogle was a failure, Google Answers was a failure, Google Maps provides no income, Google Groups is stuffed with spam, Google Images is also stuffed with spammy images that often do not even exist anymore. In the end, all they have left is Adwords and their search engine.
6. AdWords is probably the most intuitive keyword control panel I have seen, but as far as I know the conversion rate with it has done nothing but drop as time has progressed. It seems that consumers do not as readily purchase things by clicking on those ads as it may have been in the past.
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Google, unfortunately, seems to be holding onto the lead when it comes to search engines and as a result of this I will probably still use AdWords as is necessary. But I will no longer think about pagerank or optimize for the sake of Google as I feel this is an unreliable and losing battle. Too many large changes occur that threaten the very livelihood of small businesses with absolutely no explanation, and this is an unfortunate effect of Google's poor attempts to police their results.
It has become far too normal for online businesses to spend more resources avoiding being penalized by Google than innovating their own products.
I was doing a search for product instructions. Clicked on the top few SERPs, and got the identical, useless catalog page for unrelated products.
Here are the (widgetized) domains:
www.<misspelled keyword>-widget.com
www.widgets<misspelled keyword>-online.com
www.widgets-online-keyword.com
www.1-800-widgets.com
www.discountwidgets.biz
www.widget-buyers-guide.com
www.widget-keyword-keyword.com
www.keyword-widgets-online.com
These guys have managed to game the system to get the entire first page of SERPs.
And it it totally transparent and obvious to a human.
The delivered pages appear to be identical.
Oh, they have almost the entire second page of SERPs as well. More double-dash domain names.
What a joke.
As we all know lots of competition is going after the same terms, only the best wins, so far my sites are doing pretty well, no complains hehe
Good luck, instead of complaining and wasting your time in here, go actually build some good content pages and work on your backlinks lol haha
That has not happened yet to you and I'm happy for you. But if/when it does, I hope you'll remember to lol haha.
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Enjoy your rankings while they last. They could mysteriously disappear overnight, just as many others have experienced, and you'll be clueless as to what caused it. Then, perhaps, you'll understand the point of this thread. I suspect most of us would be working on our sites, fixing problems, if we knew what to fix. As it is, many of us are just making changes for the sake of making changes, hoping something will make a difference.
[edited by: TrafficGal at 3:51 am (utc) on Dec. 12, 2006]
This is not a recipe for success, as many have demonstrated, and this is the failure. I will re-iterate it again: Google hacks its 2004 algorithm and has been hacking it since the IPO. And as with all hacks, eventually you have a system you have no idea how to control.
If the orgainic results are just full of crap then who cares if the money is coming in?
The thing that I think they miss is that if you try and shaft every last cent out of webmasters then those very same webmasters may go out of business and have nothing to spend on paid search. My three oldest sites have been top of the charts for years, this allowed me to build a nice business income with some paid search thrown in. Of late I have had to tip much more into paid search to stay in the game. Everything in adwords is about relevance (plenty of guidelines and control there) but in the organics who knows what? Two weeks ago we were back... Now gone? Spam sites with incorrect (offshore spam outsourced through we all know where) english and stolen content are taking up the top 5 - 7 places then redirecting their traffic through to MFA garbage! So this week I am back to being a cynic.
[edited by: TrafficGal at 7:35 am (utc) on Dec. 12, 2006]
There is no point in providing great search results if you cant make money out of it. Think about it.
If the top 10 were absolutely perfect 100% on target the surfer would click on the site and they are gone, not to return. V if the results are Just OK a surfer will click on a result and then may return to google to click on another one or a PPC advert.
I think we see two things now in google:-
First is that not all data centres return the exact same results for all search terms hence a site that is one for "blue widgets New York" in some data centres may not be in all of them, hence may now have to purchase adwords to make up the short fall.
The second is that the tweaks between updates in the variations in the algo mean that positions keep changing and again this means that if you need stability again you need to buy adwords.
The only issue they have now as i see it is that they can only bend it so far before the results end up being utter junk. I think they are on that line now. The everflux tweaking over the the last two quarters has resulted in increased revenue for google, so from googles point of view this new system works however, as i say they can only push it so far.
Finally, i just wanted to second what some of the earlier posters here have posted. If you have worked on sites over the years that provide "quality content" On the net, all of them will have been in a range of positions in google. Often many may have been at the top of the serps and then next moment found themselves out the serps, +10, +30 etc etc. Its very, very anoying when newbies post "im at the top of the serps" HaHa LOL etc, etc it just smacks of inexperience - anyone thats been around a while sees the picture differently.
Regards
[edited by: RichTC at 10:01 am (utc) on Dec. 12, 2006]
If the top 10 were absolutely perfect 100% on target the surfer would click on the site and they are gone, not to return. V if the results are Just OK a surfer will click on a result and then may return to google to click on another one or a PPC advert.
Exactly! Mediocrity wins. It has to be good enough to not be considered as spam but boring enough so that people look around and click on ads.
I also fear since a while, that useless search results improve G`s earnings by making more users proceed thru their own ads.
Otherwise it would be an easy job to have the best content on page 1 and 2 for at least the most popular search terms in case Google would be serious about best results.
Keep on laughing. One day it will be different and you'll have no clue.
I'll reference what Adam_Lasnik explained in this thread [webmasterworld.com]:
There are many reasons why we focus on sites rather than pages in this context, including...
So if we take Adam at his word -- which of course I do -- then this is what I hear him saying (and I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong):
If for example a site has 200 pages total, of which 190 pages are outstanding content and 10 pages are clearly outside of Google's rules (for whatever reason -- bad linking, keyword stuffing, etc), then Google will very possibly DENY the web surfing public those entire 190 pages of valuable content because they are "punishing" the siteowner for violations on only 05% of his/her pages (whether those violations are intentional or not).
In addition, since they also refuse to provide even a minor clue as to WHY those 190 quality pages are no longer being returned, the siteowner is left without any recourse as to how to make things right again.
And people are wondering why there seems to be so many useless listings in the SERPS? This stated policy to "focus on sites rather than pages" is classic "throw the baby out with the bathwater"!
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If for example a site has 200 pages total, of which 190 pages are outstanding content and 10 pages are clearly outside of Google's rules (for whatever reason -- bad linking, keyword stuffing, etc), then Google will very possibly DENY the web surfing public those entire 190 pages of valuable content because they are "punishing" the siteowner for violations on only 05% of his/her pages (whether those violations are intentional or not).
9 times out of 10, the webmaster knows those 10 pages violates the guidelines. Their site should be penalized. Not penalizing the whole site is like "catching a burglar in your house stealing everything you have, and the cops turn around and let him go because he came in through the unlocked front door". The burglar knew what he was doing was wrong, so he should be penalized fully even if the front door was left open.
Google is not denying the web surfing public anything. There are plenty of other sites out there that did not violate the guidelines that will still be listed.
If you spam and get caught, then you should do the time.
our site had been cut off from Google traffic for several times. After a while things had become normal again until it was dumped again.
In and out since 1,5 years and nothing at all had been changed except that only more quality content was added.
Why is Google not prepared to discuss such issues reasonably with long established adsense partners who run some proper media sites and who feature some of the best content on the whole wide web for a whole bunch of popular keywords?
Why do they leave outdated, irrelevant and spammy stuff on top for months and dump acknowleged rich content pages with even permanent updates that had been on page 1 since ages?
9 times out of 10, the webmaster knows those 10 pages violates the guidelines.
To use your burglar analogy, if a guest in our home is stealing the silverware we do not cut off their arms. And in any case, it does not need to be "either/or" -- that is, either you're in or you're out -- Google has the capability to give fair warning when they consider someone to be in violation of their rules. If that siteowner does not thereafter correct the problem within a reasonable time, then they would have no one to blame but themselves.
I see Google's behavior as bordering on paranoia -- they have taken the defensive stance that "everyone is trying to scam them", to "take advantage of them" -- when in fact a lot of people are just making mistakes. Tell us what those mistakes are and let us fix them. It's a simple and reasonable request -- their refusal to provide fair warning is what gives others the growing impression that the mediocre SERP's are no accident.
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9 times out of 10, the webmaster knows those 10 pages violates the guidelines. Their site should be penalized. Not penalizing the whole site is like "catching a burglar in your house stealing everything you have, and the cops turn around and let him go because he came in through the unlocked front door".
If Google really follows that approach, it just shows how far the people from Academia that Google have picked up are from real life webiste managing practices.
If it were done like this then webmasters who were deliberately trying to cheat the system would not get informed but honest webmasters would. The upper hand would be with those who genuinely care about their websites. Of course the definition of an honest mistake would still lie with Google.
At the moment it seems like any little mistake is enough to get culled if it will allow Google to achieve their magic mixture which is:
"Half a dash of quality, half a dash of crap makes for a perfect moneymaking stew (through Adwords)".
"Half a dash of quality, half a dash of crap makes for a perfect moneymaking stew (through Adwords)".
WOW - I think you have discovered (and disclosed) the "secret" recipe!
good one...
On the other hand, it is clear that some some pages that are #1 should not be. I lost a top position on 'widget racing' to a page that doesn't even contain the word 'widget'! ... you would think that if someone were searching for a two word phrase, Google would know that both of those words should appear on the first few pages of serps, and maybe the number one page should generally have those two words occuring together?
[edited by: TrafficGal at 6:06 pm (utc) on Dec. 12, 2006]
their customer service and constant ambiguity leaves a lot to be desired by most
While I can't deny that we all appreciate improvements in this area, I've got to point out that Google is already doing more in this area than we've seen with any other search engine.
While I can't deny that we all appreciate improvements in this area, I've got to point out that Google is already doing more in this area than we've seen with any other search engine.
Very true, I agree.
1. Less Results than before
For example one two word search term had 20 million results, then a few weeks later it went to 12 million, as at today its 3 million. Now either google has ditched loads of pages or the number or results was complete mickey mouse in the first place?
2. Results in the index with just site address nothing else
You now see in many, many search requests result listings that dont make any sence at all. ie no description just a site url so you might see results 1-11 look ok and then 12 is bodged, 13-14 ok the 15, and 16 bodged etc etc. A number of sites pages not being idexed correctly in the serps yet listed.
Whilst google likes to make out it has problems when it doesnt to confuse webmasters, currently i think it does have some technical problems since the roll out of the new infastructure.
[edited by: RichTC at 12:19 pm (utc) on Dec. 15, 2006]
To use your burglar analogy, if a guest in our home is stealing the silverware we do not cut off their arms. And in any case, it does not need to be "either/or" -- that is, either you're in or you're out -- Google has the capability to give fair warning when they consider someone to be in violation of their rules.
In my house, if I catch a guest stealing anything, they will be lucky to leave alive. I work very hard for what I have and if they try to take it and I catch them, well let's say they will not leave my house untouched. They will know NEVER to try and steal from me again.
By the way, in the Middle East, there are some cultures that do cut off peoples hands for stealing. Their crime rates are very low. Very effective detterent. Much more so than a good stern talking to.
As a Webmaster no matter how experienced you are, if your online it is your duty to find out the rules to play by. Google makes it very easy to find their basic guidelines as well as just reading some of the many forums. There is no excuse for trying a little spam on some pages to see what happens and what you can get away with and not risk losing the entire site.
Of course, that's my opinion and I hope Google does not entertain the idea of only removing offending pages. That would be an open inivitation to all spammers.
