Forum Moderators: Robert Charlton & goodroi
a friend of mine has a site with frames. He has to stick to the frame layout because he gets all the data and layout from a support company. So the html-code is something like this:
....
frameset rows="0,*" ...
frame src="empty.html" ...
frame src=""http://www.example.com/.....
noframes
body
keywords ......
/body
/noframes
/frameset
/html
Since the support company data is on a different domain and server my friend's site does not get any Google juice, right? He can built additional content but this would all be on the other server. So, as I assume the only SEO possibility is having a keyword rich title, disregarding keyword and description tags. And what's about the noframes area. I mentioned above keywords because I saw on the Net a high ranked <similr> site with a LOT of keywords (only keywords!) in the noframes area. Does this help or would Google look at this as spam? How can I help my friend to get good Google rankings?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Albert
[edited by: tedster at 3:42 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]
[edit reason] remove specifics [/edit]
The solution I have been using before switching to IFRAMES was hiding FRAMESET and NOFRAMES tags in JavaScript document.write - this resulted in Google indexing framed site properly and getting decent SERPs.
However, I thought it didn't comply with Google Webmaster Guidelines, so when I was going to add Adsense, I switched to IFRAME-based layout - Google indexes content inside IFRAME properly and follows links in this content with no problems.
But isn't it spam when you put a LOT OF ONLY KEYWORDS into the noframes area? I say this because "normal" site visitors, who haven't disabled frames, don't see this noframes text.
And, because my friend has to stick to the frames layout, what's about my question about the
frame src="support-company....
Am I right that Google goes to this address at the other domain and server, indexing the site content for THAT domain and not for my friend's domain. So my friend does NOT get any ranking benefit for his site, right? I am a little confused about this aspect and I hope that I have explained it somehow understandably so that you can give me some advice.
Again, thank you for your help.
Albert
[edited by: tedster at 3:44 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]
[edit reason] remove specifics [/edit]
...indexing the site content for THAT domain and not for my friend's domain. So my friend does NOT get any ranking benefit for his site, right?
Exactly right.
isn't it spam when you put a LOT OF ONLY KEYWORDS into the noframes area?
Yes, and probably enough to get the site banned if competitor filled Google spam report. But you cat use keyword rich text instead of 'only keywords' to minimise the risk. Myself, I used just simple HTML version of the same content I had in frame, with no keyword stuffing, and it did well enough.
I believe that G must be following the link in the noframes code to index the rest of the site's contents, since there are no other links in the normal home page main frame that would allow the site to be spidered and indexed as well as it is.
Now back to my problems: I think I use the iframe solution. But now I have an additional question:
My friend wants to concentrate on the cruise business because there is now and probably for a long time a big surge in demand. So he wants to have for the cruise business another domain, separate from the travel domain, and getting mainly for this site high Google ranking. Although on the cruise site would be only cruise related content there would and has to be also such things like masthead, contact us, privacy notice etc. which would have the same content as on the travel site. And he wants also link both sites together. So because of the linking Google knows the relationship of both sites and sees the duplicate content. Would this then degrade the ranking of both sites? And how would you handle this aspect?
Again thanks for your help.
Albert
Because my friend has to change the content for his server with an editing program on the travel support company server it would be good to include those changed html-files from the travel support company server into iframes on his server. But then these would be three iframes: header, navigation and content. What would Google say to this? Is it with three iframes still good for the ranking? Of course I could move the header and navigation to his server, because they are changed not so very often, and change them there. But then the files on both servers are not equal and perhaps the support company changes also something without his knowledge.
Albert
However, there is a problem: according to a warning that "Google Search Quality" mailed us hours before they kicked us out of the index ("Let's do some evil..."), they regard noframes-text as hidden text...
We did no keyword-stuffing or other black hat-tricks: just a general description of the site and a sitemap. Just as alternate-text is supposed to be according to everyone outside the plex.
We guessed they might mean they wanted to see noframes as an exact mirror of the default pages in the frameset (what the user sees before he navigates the site and without any specific page loaded in the frameset based on a querystring).
After changing noframes based on this guess work, we filed a reinclusion request and our site came back. Although the Quality-guys didn't have te decency to answer any of our questions, I think it's safe to assume Google redefines alternate-text as "exact mirror of your default screen".
I don't know if albert0346's friend is adding any additional value to the information from the travel support company (or maybe gives a unique discount or whatever), but if he does he should consider using XML to present the info on his own site.
If he is just taking commission without adding any value, his site will be duplicate content. But if he rearranges the XML-information and adds his own (editorial info, travel tips, users experiences, special offers) XML might be a great solution.
Perhaps I should clarify: The support company offers a site management system where you can build your pages AND offers all the information data and you can also order.
Could you please explain a little more how to create those XML-files with which content.
And, does someone have an answer to my previous two questions? Would be nice. Thanks in advance.
Albert
[edited by: tedster at 3:47 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]
And, as tedster confirmed with frames the same I think is true for iframes: When I use in src="support domain" then the support domain get indexed and not my friend's site, right?
So I think iframes are not the best way for me. What's about SSI? Can I use SSI to include pages from other domains in a page on my friend's server?
[edited by: tedster at 3:45 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]
Perhaps I should clarify: The support company offers a site management system where you can build your pages AND offers all the information data and you can also order.
That sounds to me like: no original content, no pricing of your own. So the current situation (Google crawling and indexing the support company-site) looks just right to me. Everything else sounds like duplicate content.
Could you please explain a little more how to create those XML-files with which content.
You'd better contact the support company or have a look at their FAQ to see whether they deliver XML. Explaining exactly how it works would take a complete course, but in general: it's a way to use their data on your site.
Of course this is only usefull when you add your own unique information to it. Otherwise it's still duplicate content or at it's best "thin affiliate".
[edited by: tedster at 3:46 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]
after having a long discussion with my friend I've got some, sometimes strange, ideas how I should go forward. But before I do it I want to ask you and hope you have time and the willingness to help me:
Since he cannot escape this frame problem he at least wants to get some additional help for Google ranking with his other reserved domains. He wants to create for every domain, perhaps at least 5 of them, one to three pages with good content with keywords. Then he wants to link every domain with each other and with the main domain which has the main content. Since those domains have then not so many links to them he wants to exchange the domain-content (move the content from domain A to B, B to A, C to D ....) every let's say 3 weeks or so, and give so Google every 3 weeks new content for every domain. So, this all sounds like my friend wants to trick Google, don't you think so? And Google probably recognizes this, right?
Then a question for a "normal" procedure:
When he has those 5 domains with not so many content and links and he links to the main domain does this hurt the ranking of his main domain? Or is a one-page domain not hurting page rank? And if the content on those domains stays the same for a couple of months this probably is also not good for ranking, right?
So, what would you suggest my friend to do?
Thanks again for your help.
Albert
[edited by: tedster at 3:40 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]
[edit reason] remove specifics [/edit]
Google does not want to show many sites in their index that only offer the same thing as many other clients of the same support company, and they are getting good at spotting this practice. Unless a site offers their visitors some unique added value over and above the general service from the support company, they will usually be filtered out.
The only real answer for getting organic search traffic today is not to try tricks but to actually offer extra value, something unique and served from your own domain. Otherwise, look for other sources for traffic than Google Search.
Albert
