Kissing Google goodbye

Google draconian anti competitive actions do not go unnoticed

[goodoldweb]

Kissing Google goodbye...when enough is enough.

[theage.com.au...]

Last week, we finally decided to stop supporting Google. Our disaffection has been brewing for a while.
We've become increasingly dismayed by evidence that the search giant has been taking liberties with its users and entire national economies, from which its Adwords and search data sales activities extract enormous wealth, while avoiding a reasonable share of the tax burden.

[matrix_jan]

Total BS. I won't be surprised if this guy wrote this piece on Mac, or that he likes Starbucks, or that he buys stuff at Amazon, or that he has a mortgage, car loan, or credit cards with major banks, or that he has finances invested in Wall Street, and the most important part, that he himself does his best to legally avoid paying more taxes.

Wonder why I mentioned all those brands? Ever heard of Double Irish With A Dutch Sandwich?

Still don't see where I'm heading with this?

Search for "The Tax Free Tour" (I hope admins won't delete this as it's a free documentary made by a Dutch broadcaster VPRO on zero tax policy of Google, Amazon, Starbucks, Apple, and many others)

Cheers ;)

[SevenCubed]

The tremendous scale of reach, influence and revenue is what sets google apart from those other entities you mention. It's not total BS.

[matrix_jan]

By "total BS" I meant the article itself not GOOG's tax evasion. My point is that the financial world, just like the tech world, evolves. If you want to live free with no ties to "corrupt", low-tax-paying, multi-billionaire companies then you'll find yourself out in the middle of the boonies, with no clothes and gadgets. They are everywhere, that is how the financial system works (whether we like it or not).

One can't cry about animal rights while wearing a fur coat. It talks more about the person than the animal abusers.

My point: if you say goodbye to google because of their tax evasion, than you have to say goodbye to a lot of products and services. So better not talk about it and do your thing.

[SevenCubed]

So better not talk about it and do your thing.

!

A short quote by one of my favourite authors who likes to talk about these types of issues:

You are the way and the wayfarers.

And when one of you falls down he falls down for one of those behind him, a caution against the stumbling stone.

Ay and he falls for those ahead of him, who though faster and surer of foot, yet removed not the stumbling stone.

~ Kahlil Gibran ~

Sure we can turn a blind eye to what's going on around us if we want to be in it for ourselves. Myself, I appreciate article writers like the one of the topic of this thread who is willing to put himself into an unpopular debate. He'll pave the way for a better life for his grandchildren while at the same time showing his fathers how it's done.

[matrix_jan]

Myself, I appreciate article writers like the one of the topic of this thread who is willing to put himself into an unpopular debate. He'll pave the way for a better life for his grandchildren while at the same time showing his fathers how it's done.

I'd agree with you as long as the article was informative, not persuasive and / or expressed subjective points of view and certain actions of the author based on the topic.

If one stands on the podium in the middle of the square and talks about a particular issue with a particular company while blind-eyeing other companies with same issues, and persuades others to follow his actions of saying NO to that company, then for me it's called politics. I'm not sure it's something grandchildren should be proud of, unless they are in politics as well.

Criticizing one head of a dragon while chatting and laughing with other heads won't do any good.

I would be proud of a grandfather who talked about ideas not companies. Ideas make lives of the next generations better not certain companies.

[SevenCubed]

Ideas make lives of the next generations better not certain companies.

But how do we get to the next generations without the necessities of commerce to support our basic requirements for food and shelter. The whole of our existence revolves our commerce -- companies providing the necessary necessities versus those grabbing and clutching.

Should it be that only the grandchildren of present owners of greedy multinational corporations be allowed to enjoy a good life free of the stress of trying to ensure they will have enough food, shelter, clothing, education to meet their needs throughout their lives?

In your example, google knows way more than it should know about each of those other entities' customers behaviours but the reverse is not true. Those others you mention know very little if anything about google's customers.

Is that a fair balance that should go unmentioned and ignored?

[matrix_jan]

SevenCubed, you are missing the whole point.

It's not about companies. If you don't like auto gas emissions, you don't fight against Ferrari (company), you fight against regulations (idea). Sure google collects data. But how? and why? these are the questions that are worth discussing. If it's not google then it will be bing, if not bing then something else... It's the platform that should be altered not companies. Platform is the "Idea" I was referring to. Author is writing about google because he's a tech guy. If he was in finances he'd write about banks... My point is that these all are connected and you can't say goodbye to something based on an idea and then betray your own view on the same idea and cuddle with other companies.

Sure companies bring ideas to life. But putting an ice on your head won't make the fever go away, you have to fight the cause, the platform and conditions that allow the issue to persist.

[SevenCubed]

It's not about companies. If you don't like auto gas emissions, you don't fight against Ferrari (company), you fight against regulations (idea).

I agree but these days the line between the two is very blurred. In fact depending on where in the world you live companies have the government regulators in their back pocket.

I'm going to have to go back and reread the article itself to understand your other points of your last post. And I need a break, been posting a lot today.

Catch back up with you later. Cheers.

[matrix_jan]

In fact depending on where in the world you live companies have the government regulators in their back pocket.

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head. There is a space left by the governments for the companies to conduct such activities like tax evasion and user data collection/usage. Fighting against a certain company is useless and a waste of time. You can't win that war. If you don't like their service then go to the competitors. And the sad part is that competitors are no better than they are. Because they don't just collect data or evade paying taxes for fun, it's a business model. If they stop doing it their ship will sink. That's how simple it is.

I highly recommend watching the documentary I mentioned above.

[Robert Charlton]

matrix_jan - Thanks for suggesting the documentary. I've only had time so far to watch about half of it. It's very well done. Here's basic info on it, including a link to it on YouTube....

The Tax Free Tour (VPRO, Marije Meerman)
trt 53:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4o13isDdfY [youtube.com]

Where do multinationals pay taxes and how much?" Gaining insight
from international tax experts, Backlight director Marije Meerman
('Quants' & 'Money & Speed'), takes a look at tax havens, the people
who live there and the routes along which tax is avoided globally...

[matrix_jan]

My pleasure of sharing.

To summarize let me post a five minute animation on how companies (including google, like mentioned in the article) track and use our data. I have to tell that it's scary, but this is the world that we live in. And turning your back on one company because of their data collection and tax evasion just doesn't make sense to me.

[youtube.com...]

[Kendo]

if you say goodbye to google... than you have to say goodbye to a lot of products and services.

Nothing will be missed. They are not the only entity providing advertising give aways.

[matrix_jan]

if you say goodbye to google... than you have to say goodbye to a lot of products and services.

Nothing will be missed. They are not the only entity providing advertising give aways.

Not sure what you mean there. To make it clear I'll summarize above writings for you by editing my sentence you quoted:

If you say goodbye to google because of their tax evasion [and data collection], then you have to say goodbye to a lot of [other] products and services [from companies that collect your data and evade paying taxes].

Otherwise it's becoming a child's play - I don't like Coca-Cola, I like Pepsi. If a self respecting author is addressing the negative effects of drinking a Coca-Cola then he or she HAS to address same persisting issues with other soda products (at least most close ones). Otherwise the piece becomes unprofessional, subjective, and targeted against a certain company.

In fact OP's linked article is a perfectly targeted article against google, not against data collection or tax evasion. That's why I labeled it as a "total BS".

Caption of a linked image from the article:

Good citizen: Google's local boss Maile Carnegie.

This is a typical hate article not worth of referring to in any way other than author's personal experience. And I have nothing against your post OP, I'm glad you gave the spark so that more people will learn about data collection and zero taxes. What I want is to address the issue in general. And that's why I shared the documentary and the short video.

[goodoldweb]

linked article is a perfectly targeted article against google, not against data collection or tax evasion. That's why I labeled it as a "total BS"

:)... I fail to understand how overwhelming evidence of Google taking liberties with its users and entire national economies, while flagrantly abusing its power can be labeled as BS.

Even the video link you so kindly pointed mostly highlights Google's large number of tentacles...

And no, you can not compare Google to Facebook or twitter. Google has search, gmail, maps, chrome and most importantly Android. A suit of top notch services designed to hold the world by the ba@#!S for years to come. This is no BS my friend. No BS at all...

[matrix_jan]

:)... I fail to understand how overwhelming evidence of Google taking liberties with its users and entire national economies, while flagrantly abusing its power can be labeled as BS.

You fail to understand that I labeled the unprofessionally targeted hate article not google's collection. Maybe the problem is that some people here don't see the world beyond google, or hate google so much that don't realize how other companies can do the same evil stuff that google does.

I have bad news for you. Your data will be collected and used whether you use google or not.

I'm puzzled how a simple point like mine can still be misunderstood.

Saying no to BMW because it emits gases and jumping to an Audi that does the same thing is not a healthy topic to be discussed. Unless it's an ultra Audi-only forum.

I apologize. Now I think this was just another "let's throw stones at google" post and I spoiled it all by saying let's throw stones at the idea instead. I have already said what I had to say and thought it would be interesting for you to look at the bigger picture.

If after all this there are people who think that somehow I was trying to defend google, then I feel sorry for them for how delusional they are.

Cheers

[goodoldweb]

^ Talk about delusional... ;-)

[matrix_jan]

With numerous examples I brought, breaking it down to a 4th grade car-brand to car-brand comparison level, it's still hard to look at the bigger picture isn't it? :)

As the time goes by, everything will fall into the right places I hope.

Meanwhile, let's not use google and use alternative companies with same services as they don't collect and share data between them. Oh yeah, and they pay taxes!... ;-)

Cheers

[goodoldweb]

Whatever them "other" companies do or have fades in comparison to Google's highly concentrated suite of day to day popular services and massive reach and that is what you insist on not to (or don't want to) get. You can not compare Google's massive reach and easy access to personal information to other companies.

And yes, by stooping to use Google and moving to using other independent services (preferably one company per service) you make it harder for anyone to cross all your private information,and this my friend is a very good start.

I hope this makes more sense to you now. :-)

[matrix_jan]

You are right about "Google's highly concentrated suite of day to day popular services". And I "get it". Don't see how you still don't get that I get it and I get way more than that my friend.

So you want to stay away from companies with "highly concentrated suite of day to day popular services", right?

Google: Android, Maps, Search, Gmail - stay out, big company!
Microsoft: Skype, Nokia, Bing, Windows OS - stay out, big company!
Companies pass user data to each other through cookies - stay out!
Credit card companies share data - stay out!
And the list goes on an on...

So where does this leave you? out in the boonies? I think you should read [out loud] what I wrote above as I'm repeating myself over and over. You talk about a poisonous candy I talk about the candy jar!

So bring on your arguments, I'll be happy to hear your plan of avoiding big companies :) And don't forget that it has to work with everyone not just you! It must be a plan for us all so we can live the life we live but without exposing our privacy.

Good luck ;-)

[goodoldweb]

you are splitting hairs again... :)

None of the companies you listed (beside Google) is capable or are admittedly known to tracking your almost every move online... on almost every website.

Microsoft had access to the world's most private info since around 1990, never have they crossed the line with private information abuse the way Google did... so mark this "big company" Microsoft of your list. Whatever Microsoft did pale in comparison to the extensive tracking and private information abuse that Google is openly engaged with...

I will not waste more bandwidth trying to compare more big companies to Google... no one is even close, tracking and private data abuse/manipulation wise.

And i did not even touched tax issues yet.

So lets agree to disagree my friend :)

[matrix_jan]

Facts are facts what's there to agree or disagree? Your world ends with google, mine doesn't, that's the difference here. You've researched google's data collection and tax evasion, I've researched doses of other companies. You see one stone ahead of you, I see the road full of stones. And I still wait for you to come back with a working plan on avoiding data-collection and stopping tax evasion. That's when you'll have bandwidth, I guess, as it's going be a big one ;-)

[matrix_jan]

And to make it even clearer.

I stand on your side on saying NO to google's data collection and tax evasion.

AND

I call to say NO to other companies similar activities as well. And here is where you stop and convince yourself that somehow I'm not with you. Wake up.

[goodoldweb]

And I still wait for you to come back with a working plan on avoiding data-collection and stopping tax evasion.

:) who said you can completely avoid the data collection. It is impossible in today's world. You can however make it more difficult by spreading your usage and by avoiding the big well known offenders. I've mentioned this more then once but you seem to ignore it.

Governments and politicians should also be pushed for more and better up to date privacy laws...privacy laws with teeth and a very $trong painful bite.

As to tax evasion...more up to date legislation and then some. All very doable. The problem is so severe and so "in the face" it is no longer a question of "if", just a "when"...simply a matter of time.

Quite simple remedies actually...

[turbocharged]

Governments and politicians should also be pushed for more and better up to date privacy laws...privacy laws with teeth and a very $trong painful bite.

Well, that just aint going to happen. Governments want fewer privacy laws so that they may retain control over the people while search engines like Google want to erode privacy laws to generate profits. This is why they are helping each others cause, but each party has to put on their public face in the media to give the people an illusion that they are genuinely concerned about the privacy rights of individuals.