Forum Moderators: coopster
at what level of expertise must one attempt the Certification exam.
Do I think it will make experienced programmers better? Not really.
Do I think it can give a huge amount of insight to beginners? Definitely
Do I think it could make beginners become frustrated and fell overwhelmed? Definitely
Do I think you need that piece of paper? not really but lots of prospective employers may consider that the thing that makes you a better choice than the next programmer. ;)
Does having a certification in PHP or lets say An MCAD in C# show that you are employable and productive, especially when you do not even have years of experience behind you?
On what criteria therefore do most employers hire staff?
Julie
As an employer I try to deduce what part of an IT resume is actually true and find out if the specific things that I require are present. If they aren't I also want to find out if the person can be taught.
I am not sure how many IT help wanted ads you have read but they are mostly junk. Employers list everything under the sun and mix job descriptions, literal garbage. It seems like a chicken and egg type problem since all the IT resumes I've read list everything under the sun. I've worked with a lot of programmers that listed expert level PHP who aren't worth their snuff. You read through some of them and it blows my mind all of the ridiculous things people list as skills. So I don't know if the resumes ended up that way because the listings are most often done by non IT people or if the listings reflect the resumes the employers have read in the past.
Personally, I would be happy to get a resume with zend accreditation on it and would put it to the top of my list. At the very least I would think this person knows, and wants to be involved in, the PHP community. I would still ask a ton of questions but it would get you an interview and that's all a resume is really for anyway.
Since a language is so vast to learn, and you can only regard your self an expert after several years of using it, a Certification at least marks you have accomplished something and you have reached a certain standard, that can make you valuble to the industry not an expert. After all that is why its called and Industry Certification.
I have seen several job posts online and to be honest i get dicouraged when i see them. They expect you to know java, C++, PHP, PERL, VB, all for one job. I mean i have used java, VB and PHP and a bit of C to complete assignments but i do not consider my self an expert. Does it pay in the end to Touch all these languages and technologies and never mastering any one? I dont't think so.
Also most books I have looked at on PHP almost always teach the same stuff, mainly what is the most required at the moment namely:
how to build:
shopping Cart,
authentication Systems
Content Management Systems
Handle transaction Processing
I am also looking at the Wiley - PHP 5 & My SQL Bible (2004) and seems to concentrate more on the language and less on building systems
I think you need both to be good, a good grasp on the language and the platform it runs on, as well as hands on System building application like those mentioned above to be able to deploy solutions fast.
I was planning to try and take 2 different and opposite routes. One in PHP/MySQL and the other in C#/ASP.NET/MSSQL. Altough there is quite a learning curve getting Certified in these technologies can make you very employable or as you stated... interviewable.
PS. Is not possessing a University degree a big handicap in this area? Can one find a good job with those Certifications in the USA?
not sure, I only graduated from high school :)
>> Does it pay in the end to Touch all these languages and technologies and never mastering any one?
not sure I understand them all enough to manage people who write them but wouldn't write them myself
>> I have seen several job posts online and to be honest i get dicouraged when i see them.
don't, as I said, if I went with my staight qualifications I couldn't apply for any of them, but I can probably out program the person who gets the job ;)
>> most books I have looked at on PHP almost always teach the same stuff
hehe, that's why we're here ;)
Having said that, when can i say to myself that i have realy learned the language, is it when i look less and less for online help, or when not requiring books to build a project.
For example, I am planning to build a script to handle sign-ups and keep customer history of activities. I know what i need to do, from a Software Engineering point of view, even where the language is concerned, but i could never make it without help from books and i have only just started with PHP. although i have experiance with other progams and have a good theoretical grasp of the correct database design and how the script has to be implemented to ensure security.
I think parctice is what i need mostat this stage and probably more confidence. I tend to feel insecure when there is something i do not know. Is not knowing things acceptable...i mean can you really know everything?
I don't know actually, I can't really remember when I got to that point but it wasn't that long after I started. As long as you understand programming and logic it is just a matter of learning a new syntax. Logic is logical no matter what language it's in. if, else, switch, for, while, none of these change much through all of the languages.
>> confidence
Well then let me be your confidence. Honestly juliebelle, I think you're doing fine. Understanding how to construct your logic and having experience with other languages gives you a solid base. All you're learning is new syntax, that's it. If you can forget about what you think you can't do and just get on with it you'll be surprised.
I log into php.net tons of times everyday to look up params for functions. I wander around the manual looking for the right function to do what I need. Don't worry about using resources to prod you along, we all do it, from most experienced to least. I would never be so arrogant to assume that I knew every answer, I always welcome input and study even on problems I have faced and overcome many times.
So don't worry so much and have faith in what you know. Don't focus so much on the fact that your knowledge of PHP is still growing. Focus on the fact that you know how to approach and overcome these problems but just need a little help with the syntax.
Also appreciate that I believe in your ability so I don't see why you have so much trouble doing so. ;)
Second, a college degree in this stuff can be a hindrance, as opposed to the opposite. I have seen what a lot of colleges are teaching right now and it does not in any way prepare you for the internet as it really is.
In many cases people come out of these classes with far more rigid structure than they should have for an industry which changes constantly. A lot of classes are teaching outdated information as well.
Fortunately with individual programming languages a class has no choice but to teach you relatively current information. I've never seen a class that successfully taught creative intelligence, however, and that's what you need to be anything more than a grunt level programmer.
One of the beautiful things about the internet is that most of it's success stories involve common sense, a little creativity and very little else. Things which cannot be taught or certified.
Don't get me wrong, tech courses are improving, but right now they look pretty silly if you sit them beside the actual reality of the topics they cover.
And there's one very simple reason for why that is... Anyone who really knows what's going on is making too much money, and having too much fun, to take a teaching position. ;-)
However my main concern is how do i find a job in the IT industry with No University Degree to show and no Certifications? I don't know how the system work in the US, but where i live, you need to show qualifications etc.
What is the best way to get a good paying job say as a php/MySQL programmer with only 3 years PHP programming experience under your belt and how to convince an employer that you are good. I dontt believe in artificially inflating my CV just to appear a guru... Or does that strategy work?
search for job listings anywhere you can, get involved with local php groups if there are any and network, network, network. I just came back from the coffee shop and the girls there were asking me about my google hat, who knows, they may tell someone they know that they know someone who does "that". I was on the bus talking to someone about websites, I talk to people whenever I can with out being rude. ;) I've gotten some interesting leads from conversations as such. Try going to IT colleges near you, they often have job boards etc.
>> with only 3 years PHP programming experience under your belt
in the php world that is a good amount of time, I wish I had more people with that much experience
>> how to convince an employer that you are good.
just get the interview and be honest but do not be over modest, that can you hurt you more. They will only believe you are as good as you can convince them you are.
>> Or does that strategy work?
not really, it's good to list all the things that you think apply to the specific job and anything else you think might be useful. Don't just have the generic resume that you fire off to everyone. If you can, specialize it for each individual application as well as the cover letter, obviously.
Remember, the resume is just to get you into an interview room, the rest is up to the gift of gab. ;)
I think jatar mentioned Google? :-)
Even if working for yourself isn't what you're into, implementing a few of your own projects is great experience and it looks good on a resume.
Or if you'd rather not launch something of your own, you'll find endless, popular, websites out there where freelance programmers, designers, etc. bid on projects.
In these kinds of situations paper is much less important, you just have to convince the poster you're capable of doing what they need. Most of the bidders don't have any kind of related formal education.
To be honest i do not yet have 3 years experience using PHP, however as you said, I have a solid understanding of logic and how to Tackle a problem.
What i am finding a bit hairy lately is OOP. I know most of the theory but its when i come to apply where i get stuck. I am programming with c# and although Visual Studio does help, there are those times where i do get stuck and frustrated, but manage to find my way though using online resources although it sometimes takes a lot of time and searching.
OOP is quite a different monster to handle. It can do things very easy but you have to comprehend a lot of things before hand, a whole hierarchy of classes and their methods.
I have not delved in PHP OOP yet, but anyone suggests a good book on that. You may asume i am a newb in OOP. Although that is not true, some brushing up is always desired.
PS. Thank you all for your support guys.
