Forum Moderators: goodroi
France's national library has raised a "war cry" over plans by Google to put books from some of the world's great libraries on the Internet and wants to ensure the project does not lead a domination of American ideas.
Jean-Noel Jeanneney, who heads France's national library and is a noted historian, says Google's choice of works is likely to favor Anglo-Saxon ideas and the English language.
hahaha. Come on, every country has idiots...ours just happened to be too high profile;)
I understand your bitterness about what happended to that Italian journalist and her security guards, but this forum is definitely not the right place to dicuss it. I suggest we stop the name calling, the whining and the meta-whining.
Leosghost,
One of the really good things about this place WebmasterWorld is that we do actually get to contact and to see the points of view of other countries citizens ..and not just what those who control our respective national medias tell us that the other guy or girl thinks..
Hear, hear!
... and this is not meant sarcastically ...
Who goes to libraries or researches library catalogues online? The educated. This is not about John Grisham thrillers taking over the French market, we are talking about real literature here - the cultural, scientific and artistic heritage of a country. I talked to an English relative of mine who attends conferences in Paris very often. He said that in his experience the educated French do understand and even speak English very well because it is the language of international science these days. So the point is that the French better make sure that their national library inventory is scanned and made available online as well, either by contributing to Google's efforts or by doing their own thing.
But I also think there is a more general problem. Any attempt to put books on line, either by Google, the Guttenberg Project, or whoever, tends to produce distortion and compound inaccuracies.
The only stuff that will be made available is out-of-copyright texts, which may or may not be accurate. More recent scholarly additions are still in copyright, and no one is going to rip apart a valuable first edition so that it can be OCR'd. For example if you want to read Lord Byron's letters the Guttenberg text is a compendium dating from 1898, not the modern scholarly edition by Marchand.
And if you want to read a modern author who is still in copyright, there is no chance. Try Guttenberg for Hemingway, or Andre Malraux. Similarly a search for "Waugh" brings up the 19th Century Edwin Waugh, not the 20th Century author.
Budding scholars would be well advised to treat on-line texts with caution, especially those that (as in many cases) do not include a note on their provenance, and may well have started life as a cheap and inaccurate paperback that some volunteer has fed into a scanner. Very often cheap paperbacks start life as inaccurate copies, or even abridgements, of earlier out-of-copyright editions of dubious provenance. On-line texts can compound the problems.
( for those who missed a program you can connect to their site and hear the entire emission again..for free ..the same thing exists in the USA with PSB radio in some areas ..again it is free ) ..
In France the public service broadcaster "Radio france" also offers this service ..at a cost of €8.oo or around $11.oo per time per program! ...payable by Credit card before you can "listen again"..
This would appear to confirm that they are not so much interested in bringing French culture to the world ( or the french themselves ) more in "fleecing" people ..
They claim that all other organisations including the BBC charge in the same way they do ..!
I know because I actually took part in a radio program on France Inter ( the french version of BBC radio 4 ..only nowhere near as good! ) ..when the presenter and the chief executive of France Inter said this ( see above ) and I challenged them to repeat this obvious untruth ( told to the french listeners ..in french! ) my microphone developed instantaneous "technical problems" and they went to another question saying only that "some people are not of the same opinion as them " ...
It is such a shame to see the "world view" of an entire country "manipulated" in this way ...no doubt Mr Jeanneney also wished to be paid for letting Google access his data ..or to be able to charge for each consultation on line by a researcher .
<edited for "ventilation"'n' speeling .>
I also suspect that bringing up the subject of the license fee during a BBC program would result in similar clannish behaviour.
I think we should be careful before comparing apples with oranges. RF funds "listen again" by charges, whereas the BBC funds it from their a hefty and mandatory TV licence fee. At least with RF you can opt out...
The point of my posting wasn't to compare the grass in France with that of the UK or elsewhere on all subjects ..
I was one who prior to coming here thought that the grass as definately 'greener" here ..I have since discovered that it is most definately not ..but one needs to live here and be truly fluent in the language to find that out ..
The point that if you want people to listen to and to use your language ..you will gain more by making that listening free than by charging for it is however valid which ever country and or language we apply it to ..
Trying to pretend that all PSB broadcasters charge for this is "at best "missinformation" ..and cutting microphones is unacceptable censorship ..
Btw ..as regards "opting out" of The RF ..;-)..
If I want to listen to the radio ( wether RF or the BBC ) in my atelier in France ( which is accessable to the public ) I am required to subscribe to the SACEM ..or be prosecuted and fined and or imprisoned ..the money recolted by the SACEM goes to pay it's admin costs ( huge ..around 80% of what it takes in annually )and to subsidise the French recording industry ..not one centime of one Euro goes to the BBC or anyone else ie :foreign musicians whose music is broadcast etc etc ..even if they are the only ones I listen to ..
I think we should probably leave it there as we are posting from two different perspectives and information sets ..one has to live here and be able to compare the experience with having lived elsewhere to be able to comment ..
I think we should probably leave it there as we are posting from two different perspectives and information sets ..one has to live here and be able to compare the experience with having lived elsewhere to be able to comment ..
I’m a citizen of both France and the United States who has been living in France now for five years. I was married and am raising my son here. I find your view of France to be distorted at best. How can you continue to make blanket generalizations about a country as vast and diverse as France? The one common trait I’ve found among the French is that they show respect for the ideas and the culture of others. I would suggest you do the same.
I didn't make these things up
The one common trait I’ve found among the French is that they show respect for the ideas and the culture of others.
Even my 11 yr old son ( incedentally who was born here and lived all his life here ) asks me why do all the "news people" here hate Americans and English? ( BTW ..he asks me in french )...
My wife who is french says it's jealousy ..as do my French friends who have travelled outside of France ..
I just think it's a shame ..a reality which try as you may to deny it is there nevertheless ..but a shame ..
You must be missing all the "snide "remarks by PPDA and Marc Olivier Fogiel , Daniel Mermet etc and the other broadcasters such a Dechavanne , Coffre ( the list is endless ) ...each time the USA or UK is mentioned
Total nonsense, you are hearing what you want to hear.
Even my 11 yr old son ( incidentally who was born here and lived all his life here ) asks me why do all the "news people" here hate Americans and English? ( BTW ..he asks me in French )...
That because of what you tell him. BTW that must be hard having your son talk to you in the language of a country you hate.
..as do my French friends who have traveled outside of France ..
My wife who also French is not jealous and nether are my French friends who have traveled outside France.
I just think it's a shame ..a reality which try as you may to deny it is there nevertheless ..but a shame ..
I agree a 100%, it’s a shame to live in a country you hate.
[edited by: jchampliaud at 2:44 pm (utc) on Mar. 7, 2005]
Brett or Chris ..edit as you see fit.
my French fiends who have traveled outside France.
Do not keep the company of fiends!
You started it not me.
?
REF ..
I didn't realize so many people here like freedom fries ;).
And I presume you wish to pass off that for "informed comment" or even perhaps "honest opinion"...
Even RonPk ( who appears to agree more with your outlook on where we live than mine ) could see exactly where you were coming from ...
You have demonstrated my points perfectly with regards to the "openmindedness" or "lack of it" of of some of my neighbours ..
:) However, having said that, I do take umbrage at being taken to task because "one has to live here and be able to compare the experience with having lived elsewhere to be able to comment .."
Why do you assume that? I don't live there, but I know French quite well, subscribe to a hebdo, Le Point, and buy more French books than I do English.
Perhaps you should try watching British TV. We too can get quite satirical about the US. The French don't come out unscathed either. We all have our ultra-nationalists.
Sorry HarryM ..I had assumed that you ddn't live here cos you didn't say that you did ..don't take "umbrage" no offence was meant ;)..Just that I used to "outrage" my friends in the UK and USA etc when I used to sing the praises of the french system and society over theirs ( thats before I lived here ..when I had only visited for short periods )..
Can't watch British TV to compare ..the french asked the Brits (Sky and BBC etc ) to stop broadcasting it into areas where french people could receive it because they the french wanted to charge us to receive "Cartoon Network" and "Turner Classic Movies" ( very very badly translated )and Eurosport ( which is free everywhere else in Europe except on the french tv satelite )..
If I moved nearer to the north coast ( at the moment I'm 5 kms from it ..still can't get a signal )perhaps I could get the BBC ..then again under current french law the possesion of a decoder that uses a crypted "a la skybox etc " signal ..the decrypting key for which that has not been "deposé" with the french government is illegal ..and one can risk upto 5 years in jail for the possesion of a skybox or a BBC digibox ..don't know if they'd ever try it on ..but they did pass the required law ...really!
As I indicated earlier I actually like the majority of the people here and if they have travelled I tend to like em even more cos it's easier to talk to them without being treated as "a sale rosbif" every 5 minutes or having it assumed ..frequently with much hostility towards me ..that I support everything that George "W" does ...
As someone pointed out to me in a sticky ..in the USA you have Fox and "O 'Reilly" equaly xenophobic at times ..
...you can also however watch something else ..such as CNBC or CNN or any other of the 100's of channels ..
Here the 6 TV channels are all interlinked ( the "vedettes" and their "production companies" etc all work for each others "chaines" ..FR3 and Antenne 2 , M6 , TFI etc all show ads for Canalsatellite , TPS or Canal+ ..and vice versa ) so only the xenophobic anti anglophone veiwpoint is given air time ....
100 dead in a bombing recently passed after the football at the end of the primetime TF1 news at 8.00pm news ...45 minutes after the pope and the weather!
As the thread title says ..or at least infers ..France is disconnected"..
It could be a voice for multiple alternatives of how to view the world ..unhappily it usually is only interested in being or propounding "knee jerkily" ( if that is a phrase?) "anything except what the anglophones want or think " ...
50 years the same refrain ...
Here the 6 TV channels are all interlinked ( the "vedettes" and their "production companies" etc all work for each others "chaines" ..FR3 and Antenne 2 , M6 , TFI etc all show ads for Canalsatellite , TPS or Canal+ ..and vice versa ) so only the xenophobic anti anglophone veiwpoint is given air time ....
This not true, French TV otters a wide rage of viewpoints. I’m getting tired of you spreading your lies about France.
[time.com...]
This not true
Remember "le lois Toubon" ..still in force .."40% of all musical output broadcast in France wether on radio or Tv must be in the french language " ...
As someone who worked in commercial radio and music video production I can tell you that brought to France exactly what you would expect .."mediocrity and clientelism " ..singers that sing flat ( and just happen to be the grandchildren of influential people ) promoted as being international stars..
The only bright spot in the whole thing was Arnaud ..a Belge!
France is the world leader in electro acoustic music and has been since the 70's ..produces probably the best commercial software for the production of the same ..and some of the most talented programmers in the world are french in all fields ..particularly video / music and graphical software ..But in France you'll never hear about them cos they release what they code in English and they aren't part of the "parigo politico pseudo intello media circus " or married to politicians or editors or Enarques ...a prerequisite for exposure and recognition here ...
Bcolflesh ..there was another last night ( as usual very very late night TV prog in which many current deputies and exministers from all parties and Economists were in agreement with my analysis of french society ) presented by Arlet Chabot ...But like all progs that do not spout the offical PC line here it was shown at 11.00pm ...
Perhaps M .jchampliaud will claim I imagined this program .
PS. they were all french citizens speaking in France who considered that something here is "malsain" ( translation for the non francophones (unhealthy , corrupt )..
For myself ( inspite of what M .jchampliaud claims that I think? )...I come back to the original point ..the constant carping on the French national and international stage about the "dominance"of English over French is desined primarily for consumption by the internal French audience ..to engender feelings of xenophobia and nationalism here ..and so distract the population from the real problems in their own society.."smoke and mirrors"...
judging by the posts of M.jchampliaud ...the technique still works ..
by the way for the freedom fries lovers EU means EUROPEAN UNION
did you show the news last night how your freedom fighters killed an Italian?
This reminds me of a story that came out 5-10 years ago of an American family on vacation in Italy. While driving through the country side, their vehicle was shot at by bandits and their son or daughter (I can't remember which) was killed by one of the bullets.
What did that American family do? Instead of hating Italy, they agreed to let their child's organs be donated including the eyes. Those organs then went into 6 Italian children.
Let's keep some perspective before we start bashing the USA.
On the subject of the French fear of anglo-cultural dominance that we are discussing here, - France has more serious problems to worry about; Ten percent unemployment and the overall economy in serious trouble. Holding hands with Germany, the balance of power in the EU is slowly changing.
On the other hand, it is not Google's responsibility, albeit is nice to provide, the feature to share other then English publications on-line.
Want French/German/etc. on line? Make it.
link
[permanent.nouvelobs.com...]
Strangely the peope affected dont seem too worried about it themselves ..wonder why
But thats not important ...lets talk instead ( surtout devant les Français!) about how google should make available official french recipes for "coq au vin" ..
On the other hand, it is not Google's responsibility, albeit is nice to provide, the feature to share other then English publications on-line.
Exactly ..we haven't heard any other countries officials whining about their lack of representation in Google..
Maybe they aren't trying to distract their own citizens attention quite so hard from internal events..
overall economy in serious trouble
I'm afraid this is a phrase which is trotted out by UK and US politicians for home consumption. It's also used by certain right-wing French politicians when they want votes. But it has little basis in reality.
France is the 7th largest economy in the world, almost level-pegging with, and probably soon to overtake, that of the UK which is no 6.
France also has the 2nd most productive workforce in the world (Netherlands is no 1), i.e, Gross National Product per employed person per hour. The UK and US are way down the list.
What did that American family do? Instead of hating Italy, they agreed to let their child's organs be donated including the eyes. Those organs then went into 6 Italian children.
I think it was the brains too. Not just the eyes. The italians are great at brain transplants.
Seriously, this thread is becoming ridiculous.
But it has little basis in reality.
France also has the 2nd most productive workforce in the world (Netherlands is no 1), i.e, Gross National Product per employed person per hour. The UK and US are way down the list.
That's strange because all the French people I hear about are worried because their manufacturing jobs are going to places like Romania, Poland, etc.
French economic growth will slow to 2 percent this year from 2.3 percent in 2004, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development predicted Nov. 30. - Bloomberg.com
Meanwhile, the French tax burden is one of the highest in Europe.
The current economic slowdown and inflexible budget items have pushed the 2003 deficit to 4% of GDP, above the EU's 3% debt limit. Business investment remains listless because of low rates of capital utilization, sluggish demand, high debt, and the steep cost of capital.
I'm sorry HarryM but I have to respectfully and strongly disagree that the French economy is not going anywhere soon. If you take a hard look at what the economists (and not the politicians) are saying about the French economy, you'll see it's in trouble. Strikes, 10 percent unemployment, jobs going south, year over year decrease in GDP, high labor costs, oil price surge, decreasing exports - there is a basis for the negative outlook on the French economy.
And the international bond traders aren't running out to buy French bonds, they are stampeding to invest in Asia and hedge their bets with American T bills.
When the answer to 99 out of 100 questions is money, France has bigger problems to worry about then their paranoia over perceived anglo-dominance-persecution of internet libraries.
The figures I quoted, including workforce productivity, came from the CIA web site, which is not noted for a French bias. As to individuals being concerned about job losses, that will always be the case for all the most highly developed nations.
In the UK we are worried about it as well, although we don't have many "real" jobs to lose - they've already gone. The reason I think that France will overtake the UK is because it is still a manufacturing country. It has three major car companies, a consumer electronics industry, good rail and road infrastructure, a sensible nuclear energy program, healthy space and telecommunications industries, and is buffered by the stability of the Euro. Unfortunately the UK's economy is based mainly around financial products and is much less tangible.
HarryM here at this point I do take issue with you ..if you lived here as opposed to read what is suppposedly happening you would see that the 10% unemployment and the stagnation ( the official growth figures for the French economy can be arrived at only by accounting so creative that normally it would be called fraud ) of the French economy are slowly destroying the country ..outsourcing to ex soviet bloc countries and China from France is as fast if not faster then US outsourcing to India ..
Travel anywhere in the centre of France or now in the east and the scenes are horrifyingly reminiscent of the UK in the early 1980's ..what you see is ( with the exception of the really big companies and the hypermarkets ) all is closing down under the terrible weight of the "charges obligatoire"( 54% ) applied to every salary paid to every worker or the wage paid to themselves by every small artisan or business...not counting a civil service salary budget that is crushing as 20% of all workers in France are employed by local govt or the state ...
We have more govt workers than the USA does with only one fifth of the US population!
No politican of any colour will admit that we are going straight into an economic wall ..they do not have any idea what to do as the changes needed would require such massive structural changes to the french system as to virtually result in a new country .
Our revolution merely exchanged the monarchy for the "enarchie"..
I am constantly being asked by my french friends who have their own businesses large or small if I can explain to them how and or help them to set up their businesses as "registered" in the UK so as to releive them of this weight on their business ...
It is to avoid talking about this and asking where all the money went and who's pockets got lined and where are the politicians offshore and swiss bank accounts that we are encouraged to distract ourselves with the "dominance of English on the internet and other such irrelevancies"...to French life.
And yes we are now way way off subject ..;-)
It has three major car companies
consumer electronics industry
telecommunications industries
space
stability of the Euro
road infrastructure
a sensible nuclear energy program
rainbow warrior ..
"smoke and mirrors"..
[edited by: Leosghost at 11:28 am (utc) on Mar. 9, 2005]
My sites show up fine in Google in searches in French ..but then I did take the time and trouble to make sure they were valid and that basic SEO guidlines such as Brett's guide are observed ..( and some other stuff the secret of which I'll sell you an ebook on ;-)
Most French SEO firms however encourage doorways , hidden text ,multi cross linking and generally all the stuff we know to be high risk ..
Even on these fora I don't think there are more than maybe 10 of us from France ..the French way of doing things is different...
Googles and MSN etc is not the French way ...
Something the larger French companies such as TF1 do understand however is adsense ..to the point where in between the banners and flash ads and anigifs and adsense most big French sites look like Japanese sites on acid ..
Or they have 5 minute flash intro's ( I personally like flash ..consider it an art form ...but flash landing pages are suicide in the Serps ) with a "skip" button that only appears at the end or doesn't work ..
I probably use Google in French to search more than I use it in English ..it actually works better in French ..if one makes the effort to make the site SE friendly to begin with ..and as some have already said ..if one puts the content up one self and doesn't expect google to build your online library for free ..or pay you a fortune for access to your data ..and then build your site for you into the bargain ..
[edited by: Leosghost at 11:48 am (utc) on Mar. 9, 2005]
