Forum Moderators: not2easy
Let's also try to stay clear of our reasons; they've been discussed enough already that I think it's safe to say we'll all automatically understand the reasons behind the votes!
So, short and sweet, what do people use, and when? Remember, no reasons, just simple statements of what method we use! :)
I'll lead off:
As of very recently, I use CSS Positioning as much as possible, but still haven't totally eliminated the use of tables.
That said, I keep growing my css layout chops, because some day they will be practical. CSS is a great hobby.
What's so superior about CSS vs CSS and Tables. I have to say that I'd probably prefer CSS and Tables, if it were about looks, and I couldn't get it with pure CSS. They both involve hacks, but tables are used as a hack that's able to be seen in old browsers.
Yes, I AM a freelance website developer. If you still need to use tables for your design, then you're doing something wrong.
"I find it much quicker to use tables"
Of course you would, I used to feel that way too. However, I can create CSS layouts faster then I ever could create table based layouts.
Anyways, don't want to turn this poll into a "debate".
It all depends on how good you are at what you do...If you still need to use tables for your design, then you're doing something wrong.
If you cant build a site without using tables for layout. Give up.
Generally speaking, casting aspersions on folks who disagree with your viewpoint makes your case appear weaker, not stronger.
Some other advice:
1. Release the need to be right.
2. Welcome one another's thoughts and opinions.
3. Suspend judgment.
4. Listen for understanding, not rebuttal.
<snip>
...
From http://www.kottke.org/03/10/learning-guidelines [kottke.org]
[edited by: DrDoc at 3:22 pm (utc) on April 28, 2004]
[edit reason] Repaired broken link to source web site. Also, see TOS §10 [/edit]
Since I learned to use CSS about a year ago I have not used tables for anything but real tabular data. Not until now, at least. My newest website uses tables for something that perhaps *might* be regarded as tabular data, but I tend to believe that it isn't really. I hope to find a more elegant solution. My lack of CSS competence is certainly a problem here.
Then, CSS for the rest, unless I run into tabular data ;)
Birdman
And using tables for design is a hack.
As for the skis - give me a snowboard every time.
Probably lighter overall, but it still needs to be downloaded every time, and ALL of the table's contents need to be loaded before anything shows up.
The last XHTML 1 full CSS site I did using a single simple table for the structure takes roughly 1 second over dialup to load after the js and css is cached in the browser, that's quite a bit faster than the last few complex CSS positioned div layouts I've made, that difference is especially noticeable on slower older pc's. That site was up and running in about 10 hours total, I'm still debugging the last CSS sites I'm doing, and it's been weeks/months on both.
Use the best tool for the job, everyone is happy then.
Sure I see the first part of a positioned div page quickly, then the browser has to work out all that CSS, that usually takes longer than for a clean table layout to fill and display.
I do of course use it for the things its good at, just not structure.
A good rule of thumb someone mentioned to me the other day - I'm not sure if it always works - is:
"If you were writing the same document in MS Word and you would insert a table, then, obviously, you should use table tags. But if you were creating the document using columns or tabs or inserted images, then, ideally, you should be using CSS-P."
I don't mind being wrong, nor does my bank manager have any complaints.
Onya
Woz
BReflection, forgive me for picking up on that, nothing personal of course but it's a very common view.
The thing is that CSS is NOT difficult to do cross-browser. It hasn't been for 2yrs or more. What people actually find difficult is the concept of having to learn somthing else aswell as tables for layout.
Really, I've been using pure CSS layout for around 2yrs or more, and I, like many others (mainly designers newer to the game I'm guessing) dont have any trouble with it.
The trouble is not with the technology, it's not with the browers, it's just that you havn't learnt how to use it properly. It's not somthing that you can learn in 5 minutes, but nor is it rocket science.
So, for all those that continue to kid themselves that it's not their fault that browsers cant handle CSS and that tables really are the only options: THINK AGAIN!
These people are just kidding themselves, and that's cool, you do it your way, I'll do it mine. But please dont knock CSS just because you havn't understood it properly. ;)
Nick
Which is really the only reason I still use a combination of Tables and CSS; purely a Time/Priority issue.
Onya
Woz
nor does my bank manager have any complaints
Neither does mine lol
But unlike bank managers etc, I don't care about lots of money. I care about giving the customer a standards compliant, fast loading site that enables them to compete in the present AND the future.
As Nick said, you take the tables road.. and i'll take the standards road... "and i'll get to scotland before ye" :P
Sorry for turning that into a song lol
I couldn't honestly care less whether proprietary tags, deprecated tags and the biggest hack of all aka tables are the "cool" thing to do, because they are what we've "always used". I come from the open source/hacker culture, learning is the key to the survival of anything. If you're too lazy to spend more than 5 minutes learning something, then you shouldn't be in your profession.
Tables vs CSS seems to rival religion topics as far as heated debates go :P
Still using tables for PHP/MySQL query outputs, but hoping I can use CSS for that eventually. Other than that, 90% of my new developing is in CSS.Query data is often tabular in nature, and therefor, it's what tabels are there for, unless it's only one column, when a list would be better. Once in a while, for two columns you can still use a list (<ol> or <dl>), but more than two columns, tables are the way to go.
Occationally, for query results it might be better to use a list of lists, but that would be an exception.
i find it rather difficult to have cross-browser compatibility when using CSS only layouts... ;-/ i've tried X times and i've never successfully make one, maybe it's just my skills...LOL!
I don't think anyone should be tub-thumping or rabble-rousing. Reasoned discussion is better if what one has in mind is converting the other guy's POV....
But, in playing around with different ideas, I found that small tables offered a quick solution to problems I spent way too much time working to resolve in css. I can alway go back and re-visit them when I'm not sleeping well...
Be even better if you could place each column in the code where you wantYou can do that now:
#col1 {width : 10em; float : left}
#col2 {margin-right : 11em; margin-left : 11em}
#col3 {width : 10em; float : right}
...
<body>
<div id="col2">...</div>
<div id="col3">...</div>
<div id="col1">...</div>
