Forum Moderators: mack
If I ever want to edit the code by hand, DW comes with an EXCELLENT code editor.
Personally, I handcode most things because I almost always make dynamic pages, not to mention that my cranky old version of DreamWeaver 3 doesn't do well with stylesheets at all. I suspect the new ones are better.
That said, handcoding something like a complex table is a total waste of time in my opinion. In cases like that I either use DW or have it generated dynamically with PHP.
I also think it depends a little on whether you are working with others. I have worked on a couple of sites where some people hand coded and some made content changes with FP or DW. It was always a mess and all sorts of code bloat and page errors would crop up when someone simply opened a page and closed it in FP or DW.
Tom
However, what i find now is that I mostly use Frontpage / Dreamweaver to create my pages, but once they are all done, I go back in a text editor and make the code look nice. It seems any editor i have used seems to find a way to make messy code, which can be made much neater if you know HTML. I make my page in an editor, and then go back in notepad and "clean it up". Works good for me, and keeps me up to date with new "HTML" happenings.
Even looking at a blank DW canvas sends chills down my spine. I have no idea how to start. >;->
By using HTML, I am able to build my own templates,
and change things quickly just to see how they will
look on my website.
With a WYSIWYG you're stuck using what they have. I
never like what they have.
With a WYSIWYG you're stuck using what they have.
DW, as with most other wysiwyg software, allows you to program in straight html as and when you like.
There is nothing that I can do in plain html that I can't do in Dreamweaver, and plenty that is quicker and easier using DW's advanced features.
If you wish to program in html because it is easier for you personally, then that is fine - plenty of room for different opinions on that score - but don't make the mistake of thinking that WYSIWYG always means giving up control.
However, I decided that I want to know what is going on under the hood rather than letting the program do everything for me. Since learning how to code by hand I find I have much more freedom, and it is actually faster. I'm nothing special, don't have a crazy fast computer (eMac) but I really do find it faster. I use BBEdit or the inbuilt text editor in Transmit which is super fast to use, there's no lag switching between different programmes, so no waiting around.
Also, all you need to do is make up a master template for the index page, product categories and product pages and then just start to add to content. Takes no time at all, keeps code clean and tidy and you always know what is going on with your site, making trouble shooting much faster.
Just my 0.02
don't make the mistake of thinking that WYSIWYG always means giving up control.
I'm with you 4eyes - after 8 years of cutting code you end up pretty dab hand at it. DW is a "God send" - and has no coding limitations at all. It is very code centric and very happy to handle any clean code that you wish to throw at it (unlike some of M*$oft products) which should not be confused with DW at all.
DW's WYSISWG is very slick and cuts good code that you can choose to handle any way that YOU want.
As an example I avaoid bloated code by throwing my own simple Javascript code in that sits as a small "snippet" that you have access to anytime from a floating pallet. DW doesn't care and renders it just fine.
You do have real choices and if you are into hand chopped code it will amaze you :-)
The latest demo version makes a huge lunge into CSS as well!
/Wayne
I was kinda surprised when people lumped DW with other WYSIWIG's. I'm with 4eyes too, there is NOTHING i cannot do with DW that I can do with any other HTML editing program in terms of writing clean code.
So DW actually kinda doesn't apply to the topic of this thread, because it's BOTH HTML and WYSIWIG i.e. I don't believe there are any tradeoffs, but lots of pluses so it's a no-brainer for me.
:)
The only thing I've been able to do with it, is write
my code and preview it.
Maybe I have problems with the WYSIWYG(?) because I've
only gotten a couple off of the net and they don't really
give good instructions on using them
ok, the first impression i got with DW was downright awful. a designer i work with (i'm a developer) uses it, because he doesn't know html. he also doesn't know how to use DW... just point, click, drag, and not worry about the html. then you see random div tags everywhere, random font tags everywhere, random everything everywhere. i am a very anal person when it comes to my code... all tab indented properly, all lowercase attributes, etc. so you can see my disappointment with DW. my thought is, if someone else can't read your code flow, it's not good code. and that's what DW produces (IMO), an unreadable flow. i code all by hand, always have, and i will never stop. i've gotten to the point where i can visualize what my code is producing, as i write it. no worries.
now my question is this:
i've heard rumors about being able to clean up your code with DW. 4eyes is obviously a big DW advocate. how exactly can i teach my designer to create good flow with DW? i'm open for suggestions.
-Matt
I use HTML Tidy to check my code.
THe HTML Code cleanup utility is under Commands -> Clean HTML(or XHTML, it detects your DOCTYPE)
It will detect all the empty tags and unclosed tags (the configuration is fairly flexible) and fix them.
Also, under the File menu, you can find a Check Page item where you can check links, validate your page to whatever standard you want, check accessibility (missing/empty alt tags and such) and it will generate a report for you with all the errors and you have to but click on the error for it to take you to the piece of code. This can be done for a single document or site-wide.
Again, I'm still not sure why people don't use DW.
For those of you who are looking for DW pointers, there are tons and tons of good DW tutorials available on the web.
I've been messing with this web stuff since '95/'96 and learned HTML first, basically because no even passably usable WYSIWYG editors were available then. It wasn't until I started working in a small web design department of a corporation that I started using WYSIWYG tools, and I did so quite grudgingly. Front Page I still loathe, but not nearly as much as I used to in its early incarnations. Most of my resentment and frustration with it, I suspect, is just leftovers from all the inane things it did to me in those early days. ;)
Dreamweaver I "discovered" when I joined that small web design team, and I quickly realized it was a tool of a different breed. Sure, it has its quirks (speaking especially of 3.x and 4.x versions), but they were learnable quirks and easily squashed in HTML view. It's truly a hybrid editor--designers and coders can use it, and I've used it for at least 5 years in both capacities. Your hard core coder types may bristle at the notion of using DW, but you can catch even them using it sometimes... for complex table layouts or to debug why their code isn't quite doing what they or their designer mocked up.
I've just started working with Dreamweaver MX and they've hit the nail on the head. First thing it does is ask "Are you a designer or a coder?" It's equally useful to BOTH, and folks like me who are both designers and coders (a little more heavily to one side or the other on any given day... ok, a little schitzophrenic!) One can spend an entire project in code view or design view if that's one's desire.
The MOST valuable tool of all, however, is the knowledge inside one's head on how to make the most of these tools... so that means a thorough understanding of HTML, CSS, SEO, and all those other acronyms geeks and computer professionals like us throw around.
[edited by: Shannon_Moore at 3:58 am (utc) on Nov. 9, 2003]
Content, Design, and Usability are the hard decisions not the tools used to enact them.
When you look at a house do you really care if a wooden or an aluminum hammer was used to pound in the nails?
And I must admit, I'm getting a bit spoiled with the splite Code/Design view. And it is nice to have a lot of the more mundane tasks made easier.
Now I hand code most things and use DW to manage the site.
