Forum Moderators: phranque
However my college is not a school but rather a financial institution uninterested in giving me a professional understanding of the wide range of topics we discuss here (Webmasterworld) every day.
I am curious, is anyone in a school that takes web development (mostly serverside aspects such as PHP, MySQL, ASP, and even forthcoming technologies not yet mainstream) in a serious and professional manner?
I entered my school with a decent amount of knowledge in web design and easily (understatement) learned ahead in time what I needed (in-depth) before the school would even mention the subject at hand. But this does NOT mean that I know everything by any means! Regardless I've only been given (we can't pick or choose) a single class in regards to HTML (all Dreamweaver junk that barely flirted with Javascript and made NO mention of CSS). While there are many good teachers half of them who share personal work lack a doctype for goodness sakes on their business sites.
Needless to say I feel frustrated (and robbed) in regards to having thousands of dollars in college loans rack up (and the money from state grants) both go to waste on an education that has taught me NOTHING. Bearocratic pieces of paper backed by a bank and a "college" do not interest me -- knowing and doing my job and position in society as best as I can does. In contrast I have to give credit to webmasterworld and the many good people here who help out people like myself by openly sharing what they know on a daily basis.
Has/does anyone had a more optimistic outlook on their college experience in regards to professionalism from at least a semi-self-educated point of view? What are others learning in other colleges that do actually cover web development?
I know I'll be going over such things as cold fusion, asp, php, mysql, (in an Apache class now) but clienside is still extremely important and if my college can't produce a student that can make a validating webpage with a single paragraph in notepad with simple HTML my outlook on the path ahead in the next couple of years is sadly bleak.
My advice, and others may differ, is to drop out if you can't cherry pick the classes and teachers.
Since you said you're doing an associate degree, sounds like you're in a community college of some type. Just drop the program, if that's the case, then move on to the real classes. If it's one of those technical institutes like Heald or something, oh, the pain, you're losing way too much money for what you're getting.
If you can cherry pick the classes and teachers, take only the best ones, especially in the areas of database programming, unix administration [forget wasting time on Windows junk, I wasted a year on that, if you already know how to read a windows cookbook and can check checkboxes that's about all you'll learn in most programs]. Once I realized just how bad IT teachers could be, I went to the school computer lab, and asked the IT guys who the hardest and most skilled programming teacher in the school was, and took all his classes.
If there are Apache classes take them, try to get as much hardcore stuff out of the way as you can as quickly as you can. 1 month, or 3 months, learning unix systems in depth will provide you with skills you will never regret having spent time or money learning.
Consider taking real programming classes if you aren't already doing it, C++ for example. The logic and rigour of a real academic programming class is very hard to duplicate on your own. Same for db programming. The basic stuff is just so darned boring in so many ways that it's much easier to learn it if someone is making you do it.
HTML and CSS, forget it, if they are teaching dreamweaver in html classes then you're totally wasting your time, I had a great web programming teacher, he started us on HTML, a bit of CSS, moved to serious Javascript, then to scripting languages. That was in one semester. That's very unusual, and looking back, he wasn't any good at html or css, but he tried, got us to use real text editors, which is the real key to that.
While I would have liked to take one more semester, for db programming, unix, and maybe more advanced scripting, it got to the point where the teacher, who was the hardest in the school, had to dumb down his assignments to allow the other students to keep up.
If you can't cherry pick, I'd drop out, find a high quality community college that has a decent program, and just take 1 or 2 classes a semester, taking only the best and hardest classes from the best and most pro oriented teachers. Most major american urban areas have at least one such school, but you have to be very careful to preselect the teachers, there are a lot of IT drop outs in there who maybe used to be good at FORTRAN or something 20 years ago, and haven't done jack since.
But forget advanced web stuff, everyone who is good at this stuff is doing it for a living, or writing about it, or both. There is no substitute for experience with HTML, CSS, javascript etc, although any real programming classes you take will help you much more than you might suspect when it comes to javascript, which is basically just a very high level object oriented c syntax language, same logic more or less as any real programming language. Programming classes also help you get into CSS much better than most dabblers, since it essentially is a programming language for styles, minus the if/for/while/switch options.
A few years earlier I had taken some AS400 courses and was pleased with the program, especially since I did everything remotely and never had to go to class, so I was kind of looking forward to the .NET course.
What a joke. The first night the instructor told everyone that he was as new to it as we were and we'd be following the book. The first step was to install the .NET framework on the computers we were using. He couldn't do that. Didn't know where the IIS manager was or how to start a service.
I went around the room and helped people get started with it.
I got my money back the next day and haven't looked at a community college tech course since.
If you have the patience and a small ability to learn, you can teach yourself anything related to programming.
I worked with two networking guys in an IT department, they had both taken a university unix class, the same one, same town, and they both had lept ahead of the competition because it was so solid. But that's an example of cherry picking, it wasn't a random choice.
Of course, one of those guys took another linux class, and had to explain to the teacher what the grub boot loader was. He ended up more or less teaching the class I think.
My first programming class was just like yours, a total and utter waste of time. That's the norm I'd guess. But there are certain things that it is really good to have a solid foundation in, for example, in the case of the teacher I mentioned, he had just come from 20 years of realworld C, C++, and VB programming. And he had many pet peeves about the inadequacies of junior programmers he'd see coming into the projects. His classes, as he always said, were designed to create software engineers. And his methods worked, he knew what he was doing, he'd also be learning new technologies as he taught, but he'd put in 80 hour weeks teaching to be able to keep far ahead of the students. With 20 years real world experience learning a new technology/language is not very hard.
I know in the district I was in, community college, there were maybe 5 colleges, and each had one or two good teachers, in varying disciplines. A good teacher can slice 2 years off your learning curves. Or more. Not that I'm a fan of school, but I know if it comes to say regular expressions, I don't sit around at home tinkering with them unless I have to. Same for db programming.
<caveat>Unfortunately, if you're not in a tech centered area like Boston, San Francisco bay area, Portland, Seattle, the odds of your local community college district having this type of skill available plummets to almost zero</caveat>
I have to admit that I'm still tempted to take a real unix class, shell scripting etc, and a real db programming class, those are annoying holes that I'd like to fill, and the stuff just doesn't do enough for me to spend free time learning it, although I have an adequate working knowledge of that stuff, but it's not a high level knowledge, it's just adequate. Except of course for playing with Linux, which is always fun.
Let me start out by saying that I've learned nothing in college in regards to web design so far in the two years that I have attended.
Eek. That's a very bad situation to be in. If the school's really that bad, it might be better just to get out now...
Let me start out by saying that I've spent quite a lot of time in schools, usually learning interesting but impractical things, and also that I have zero educational background for the field I'm in now - which is, as you might expect, building websites.
Fortunately for me, this is still an industry where you can get very good jobs based solely on competence. If you've managed to out-do your classmates when it comes to learning the core technologies, and especially if you have a particular area of interest (I know from your other posts that you're pretty interested in standards-based html and css coding and accessibility), I might suggest that, once you're finished the first part of your degree, you take a year out and try to find a job with a small outfit that shares your interests and simply build up a lot of experience.
Companies that do good, standards-based work are rare (at least in this town...), but they're also likely to be on the lookout for good people since that skill set is still comparatively under-represented in the field. If you can find one (or a few) companies like this, you may be able to build a mutually beneficial relationship (I know, this probably means low pay, at least at the beginning...) and get more out of it in terms of practical education and experience than you'd ever get from your (apparently) wretched college.
-B
Do a search on Google for Orlando web design and you'll be lucky to spot a doctype on any of the results. Though perhaps mutual benefit between me and an already established company may be the best course.
Unfortunitly I have to finish out 4 years and changing schools in my current situation isn't going to be very possible unless someone wants to help fix my car (was hit and ran on in January as the intelligence factor in Florida overall is html 1.0).
The not so bad news is that I CAN cherry pick to some degree. I never buy books until at LEAST the end of the first week to know if the teacher will use them and have saved a few thousand dollars in the proccess. I also avoid many teachers and when I find a decent teacher try to opt my schedule for their classes. I wouldn't say it's all doom or gloom but I am still a realist. If you get a job at 7-11 that counts as job placement and the book buy back program you'll ask how much and they'll say 4 bucks and you'll ask for which book and they'll say for all of them. I wouldn't say my spirit is crushed but I also wouldn't say I have the same enthusiasm for school that I initially did.
They're also cutting out web development in favor of such things as game development. They don't have USB 2.0 drivers installed, they run 4 GB page files, and have dozens of junk shortcuts on the dekstop and startmenus in the shared folders (can't be deleted). At least I know my competition is incompetent, at least that's a plus right? Ha!
Decreasing my learning time I know is very possible should I find the right (intelligent) people which is one dam good reason I'm here.
I've really read what was typed by everyone and I have to more then less agree.
For now I'm holding the course. I at least have an open schedule and work on my site and push myself to learn as much as I can in the free time I have. Without that free time I'd really wouldn't have any oppertunity to frustrate myself would I? ;-)
I'm interested in learning programming languages like C+ but I don't see a way for myself to market in any concievable way for like a decade.
Fortunately for me, this is still an industry where you can get very good jobs based solely on competence.
Well at least I have that going for me!
2by4...there seem to be a LOT of people from the UK on this board I've noticed...a major tech country? Competition must be fierce if my perception is correct. I'm currently in an Apache class...problem is the kids in this class (yeah im a kid...24 myself) have not connected the dots - notepad and money. Thankfully the teacher is awesomely cool so we're able to talk alien in front of everyone.
tc...my ability to learn is limited IoI... I'm really not naturally gifted at programing... learning is the detection of patterns and those patterns aren't always made apparent in the books that I read (mostly Visual Quick Start which I do find valueable enough to buy my own copies).
Let me know if you are interested.
No, not really, it's just that the major tech countries in europe, like germany, don't speak english as a first language. But I agree, this board does seem to attract more than its share fare of brits.
The kind of thing moltar points to is promising, there's a few problems with expecting interesting web stuff in a 4 year college, it doesn't take 4 years to learn web stuff, programming etc, yes, but web stuff isn't really treated seriously by most programmers.
Programming classes aren't really something you'd take to learn say C++, they are something you'd take to learn how to program. There's a big difference, I'd guess 99% of php programmers out there don't know how to program.
Bearocratic pieces of paper backed by a bank and a "college" do not interest me
You may not be interested, but employers are. Self-taught is nice, but a college degree is more than just a laundry list of things you've learned. It speaks to your ability to (a) take and follow direction, (b) study, retain, and learn, (c) work cooperatively, (d) commit to a course of action and see it through, (e) work within a structured environment...all things employers, whether hiring you for a salaried position or "renting" you as a freelancer, are looking for.
In my professional life, I can tell you that literally 95% of what I need to know to do the daily functions of my job were learned post-graduate, yet without having earned a degree, not only would I not have gotten my job, but I would be incapable of keeping it. Again, college frequently isn't about learning specific information. It's about learning to learn, and transitioning into the sorts of life-strategies that make for professional accomplishment and behavior.
What you get a degree in may be incidental (in some fields it matters a great deal, in others not so much) but getting a degree is significant. If you're not feeling satisfied with your pursuit of a web-oriented degree, consider taking a different approach. If WebmasterWorld is helping you learn what you need to learn for web development, perhaps a business degree, marketing degree, or English degree would suit your goals better. Rather than wasting your time in programming classes which you feel are beneath your abilities, you could spend time in courses learning skills that will supplement your self-taught skills nicely, all the while continuing to work toward a degree.
Obviously, there are lots of successful people in the world (and in WebmasterWorld, for that matter) who are self-taught and hold no degree, and I don't in any way mean to begrudge them their success. But remember that people who succeed without formal education usually do so in spite of having no degree, not because of it.
cEM
Got a few stickies...
One of my regrets in life is that I didn't finish my degree, and it has prevented me from gettting the interview many times. Ironically, I am now married to a college professor and can go to school for almost nothing - except I don't have any time to do it. Ahh, the problems of hiring employees and running a company.....
I did take a beginner C programming course though, and it was very helpful in understanding PHP as well as programming logic as others have already stated.
Don't underestimate the power of that diploma though. You may not learn anything, but it can help you stand our from the crowd.
in the two years that I have attended. I am close to getting my associates degree
I'd say follow through get the diploma and get good marks. It's something good to show the HR people who won't have any clue about your abilities.
Diploma gets the job, skills keep it. ;-)
considering for example business isn't my strong point by any means.
All the more reason to make it your major! Consider the possibility that one of the major reasons you find your web design classes so inane is that you already know what they are teaching. It's not that they are teaching useless information; it's that the information is useless to you because it is redundant.
By day, I teach in a public school system. I got my teaching credentials one year before the school system in which I work mandated technology standards for all faculty. Teachers coming into the system will have satisfied these (frankly laughable) requirements through their college study, as all teacher prep programs include at least one computer class. Those of us who got our credentials prior to this new initiative, however, were required to go take a computer class in order to meet the standards.
As I sideline doing freelance design work, you can imagine how simple I found this computer course. They literaly started off explaining what a mouse was, what a window was, etc. They taught how to use MS Office software (as in, "here's how to start the program; here's how to open a new document") and the bare bones of creating a simple web site using (oh lord) Netscape Composer. I was collosally bored, but even more significant was the fact that many other teachers in the class found these things challenging. For them, the class was not a waste of time. They got something out of being there, whereas for me, it just meant I missed Law and Order for 8 weeks in a row.
The point is, I sat in that class thinking about how awful it was, while others were delighting in all their new knowledge. Clearly, I shouldn't have been there. But just as clearly, they were in exactly the right place.
Obviously, your development knowledge places you beyond the scope of the courses you are taking, which means you will find them tiresome and redundant. However, switch to a field in which your prior knowledge does NOT meet or exceed the expectations of the program, and you'll likely find it engaging, if not outright challenging.
(Consider, as well, that there is a noteable qualitative difference in the complexity, depth of coverage, and quality of instruction found between a 2 year community college and a 4 year university. This isn't to disparage community colleges in any way, it's just that the best instructors, researchers, etc. go to the 4 year schools because that's where the money and prestige are. Comm colleges are a stepping stone on the academic career path leading to universities.)
You may be able to choose some courses that teach practical skills. Often, associates degree programs are more hands-on and job-skill oriented. Still, the profs may be academics without much real-world experience, so don't get your expectations too high.
Sometimes commercial training has a more practical emphasis, and usually focuses on very current technology. Even there, though, the emphasis may be on learning skills to pass certification exams vs. real-world work, so choose carefully.
I'm not underestimating the need for a diploma, just questioning if there is a better path to it.
My associates will be followed by a BA degree in web development. They will cover a few important languages but it's been the long wait until that point and the current question of if these classes will be teached effectively.
I have decided for the mean time to stay the course and go after the BA that I've been going after the whole time in Web Development. I was to get my associates at the end of this semester but that got screwed up (like other things) by someone putting the required class at the end of my BA degree instead of having me take it now. So I'll get my associates at the end of December.
I've been pondering a business degree for a while and I'd like to eventually create my own company. I've also considered learning programming languages (C+, Java, etc) but those are beyond me (I'm more of an idea guy then a hard coder).
Thanks a ton for the replies to everyone. In a sense I've become a hard coder on the most basic of levels and I guess that is what I've expected or hoped for from the college I'm attending. It does seem like web design and development isn't a general area taken too seriously which is a shame as it's extremely in-depth on a professional level.
1) Get a degree in business. Learn web 'stuff' on your own (here ;) ).
2) Get a degree in computer science (or computer information systems or whatever) with a focus on web technologies. Teach yourself the business stuff.
It sounds like the degree in 'web design' isn't well structured, probably because being a web master isn't a well defined job now. Which is actually good if you think about it because it means there's potential in it.
Anyway I do think you should get at least a Bachelor's degree in something, at least to show off when you want to start a business or get an advanced job in web 'stuff'.
There are differences in the ciriculum and quality of all colleges, but heres my personal experience -- (in reply to your last post).
My wife has a MBA with a double concentration:
International Business
Management Information Systems.
When she went through her software courses, I know she said that the guidlines for coding/scripting/markup were pretty detailed and in the case of HTML, very strict. According to her, a lot of large firms know this, and prefer an MIS degree opposed to Computer Engineering or Web Design. Also the background in business really looks good no matter what you are applying for! What the employer sees is, that you are not only capable of creating their website and working on their hardware/software needs, but you will understand the business aspects of the company. Believe me, having a business background is a HUGE advatage over someone who, according to their degree, knows just "computer stuff". You say "Perhaps ... an emphasis or minor in business...", I say absolutely! You won't be sorry!
-- Zak
