Now, I never purchased it to make money from it. I have never had it up for sale and I don't make any money from advertising (although I could as I have a large number of visitors). But it means a lot to me.
They contacted me and asked for my asking price. I emailed them back and told them that I never intended to sell the domain and since I've never sold any domain before, to please forward an offer to me.
They replied back with an offer of $1000.00 OR two tickets to any of the band's shows (which in my opionion are not of equal value anyway).
I really think it's worth more than that. They obviously want it pretty badly.
Does anyone have any advice as to what my next step should be?
I'm taking off my moderator's hat for this, I've ask a fellow mod/admin to make sure this old bull's horns don't grow too sharp, and what I'm stating is personal view of a subject that, unfortunately, is a topic strikes a bit of a nerve.
So please lower your blast shield and understand that this isn't all about you. You're just the latest in a long line. ;-/
Let's see . . .
You got the idea for the domain registration as a result of your awareness of the band's creative, i.e., their albumn name, right?
Now you feel the domain you registered it's worth more?
More than what? Your karma? Your integrity? Your character? Your soul?
None of the above?
What you hold you hold by virtue of what they created. There's no creative in it from you. All there is is the act of an opportunist, who claims or suggests some sort of band loyalty or appreciation . . and a higher price.
Cut the nonsense. Release it to its creator and accept anything they offer as a gift - assuming you have validated "it's them".
2 tickets plus an all access or backstage pass would be beyond kind.
Now, before I really get out the knives I'm going to back away from the keyboard and let anyone else speak their mind.
OBTW, we really aren't big on this type of thread as they tend to be productive of nothing. People who come here with questions like this really don't need our advice.
What they need is a conscience.
[edited by: Webwork at 6:42 pm (utc) on June 20, 2007]
I currently run a site for a popular band.
If so, why is the band's manangement company contacting you about the domain name you are forwarding to the site?
Trademark infringement, they're being kinder than kind.
Also, when I said I really think it's worth more than what they offered, I meant it's worth more TO ME.
The site means a lot to me. I've met some great friends. Obviously, we don't need the domain name to stay in touch, but on a personal level, the domain means more to me than 1k.
Sure, I understand it's easy to be greedy, and other "friends" are saying I could get a lot more than that, but that's not really what I'm about.
So, I guess my question is if I decline their offer, explaining to them that the site means more to me than that, do I then have to worry about them taking me to court for the name? If that is a possibility, I should probably just accept what they offered as it would end up costing me money the other way.
Or, do I just say it's not for sale at all?
I also want to mention that I know another fan that used to have the domain name for the title of another one of this same band's albums. No one ever contacted her to sell it, and she never got any hassle for having it. She ended up just letting it go because she couldn't afford to pay the hosting fees anymore.
If they think you are cybersquatting/infringing on their trademark etc.etc. and they absolutely want the domain, they basically have two options. One is to sue you, pay their lawyer, pay for arbitration and all, and hope to recoup the domain and maybe the costs if they're lucky. Suing their fanbase (you) isn't the greatest in the way of karma for them either.
Or they can try the softly-softly approach, offer a price which will be cheaper for them than the legal fees, be less messy, less public, and get the domain quicker.
The seem to have chosen the latter route, probably wisely. Think about whether you could win if hit with a legal challenge for the domain. Only you can decide whether you want to fight (and maybe lose), or take the money. There's probably a bit of room for negotiation, but not much: maybe work on some non-monetary-value aspects (a few signed albums to give away on your site, an interview...).
I registered the name before they announced the title of the album (they said they were considering it)
It may interest you that many companies will make an offer such as this they feel is more than fair just to save wheeling out their lawyer - start asking for more and the economic case will change and you may well end up in court.
1. I knew the other girl that had had their previous album's name and she was never taken to court or anything like that and ran her site for several years (even offering downloads, etc.).
2. I wanted to grow my community-which by the way does not earn me any money. In fact, I've spent money maintaining the site.
Now that I know I would probably lose the name to them in a court battle if I refuse to sell, I will just accept their offer.
I should have specified in my original post that I run an unofficial fan site with a message board.
I agree with the others that the management company was being very generous with their offer and you should accept it.
Do I have this right? They DO NOT want the domain for your fan site/message board, just the domain that is forwarded to it.
(Guys, I don't think this was so much a 'bad faith' situation, just a mistake. We all make those, and learn from then :))
If it has any connection with any activity that has produced a dime - not a dime of profit, just a dime - you are setting yourself up in someone's crosshairs. If you have been paying close attention to the "bad news" - not just the news that your friend didn't get sued, but the news that there is a growing trend in enforcing intellectual property rights - then you know you are risking whatever you own or may own in the future by playing this card game.
Somethings just shouldn't be done in the first place, so it troubles me to labor to convince someone that they ought to undo what ought not to have been done from the start. You have an interest that trumps their interests? Just because you say so? Not because you have a greater intellectual property right? Not even that you are a real fan, because franky a real fan in my book would have registered the domain to protect it from someone like you - a self-interested profiteer - and would have offered - before being asked - to turn it over to the band.
You don't steal their music, by downloading it for free, do you? Do the friends, those who say "ask for more money", steal the band's music by downloading it for free? If so, are they the people whose guidance you think you should follow? If you get sued will your "friends" pay your lawyer fees or any judgment? If you wouldn't ripp off their music why take their music's namesake? If you rip off their music then I guess you're just being consistent.
Let me ask you this: What kind of fan doesn't jump up and volunteer to do whatever the band asks him/her to do?
I just don't get it. This isn't love. This is something quite different from what I recall of being a fan.
[edited by: Webwork at 5:29 am (utc) on June 20, 2007]
-They've got first commercial use of the name by reason of use - the album. So they've got trademark rights to the name, whether it's registered or by common-law trademark.
-You had advance knowledge of the possibility that the name might be used by them for commercial purposes.
-You bought the domain name on speculation that it would have commercial value if they used the name for the album and that it would have some kind of benefit for you.
-Consequently, you're now gaining unearned benefit for yourself in terms of traffic, by capitalizing on your advance knowledge of their plans and buying that domain name.
There's the appearance of bad faith on your part (certainly not good faith) in the acquisition of the domain name, and if they want to protest your ownership through channels, they've got plenty of grounds for protesting, to have the domain name taken away from you.
See if there's anything here that you can use to prove good faith
[chillingeffects.org...]
Can you prove good faith, and do you have enough financial resources to try to defend buying and owning that name in order to keep it?
I'm willing to take the question at face value, and go with a variant of leadegroot's suggestion to preserve the poster's forum on a different and legally-unassailable domain. If I had just gotten whacked in the head with all of this (presumably-new) information, I think I'd graciously accept the tickets, plead earnestly for a few months to 301 the domain and for a link for a year, and count my blessings I hadn't been summoned to court. I'd also be reviewing all of the images and other multimedia on my site to make sure there weren't any lingering copyright problems there...
Jim
I'm pointing out how it can *look* to a third party and what could ensue if the point is belabored. I'd be very agreeable and pleasant and thank them profusely for their offer, take what I could and try to keep relations cordial.
Jim
Absolutely, and another thing crosses my mind, although it isn't necessarily the OP's concern.
Not all artists' managers are created equal, and if they want to take the name for themselves, for their ownership, what happens then if the band decides to go on to another manager? It's entirely possible that technically, the managers actually don't have any rights to own that domain name, since they would have no trademark rights unless they'are also the record producers and/or own the label it's been produced and distributed through.
The music business can be a tangled web sometimes, with a whole chain of involvements, from original production and ASCAP/BMI issues on through distribution companies. There can be independent production companies that produce albums that are released through record labels by contractual agreement, or record companies that produce albums for release on their own labels (plural - some have several branded labels).
But artists' managers - business manager/CPA's and/or personal managers - are just that, and would generally not have any rights, trademark, copyright or otherwise, to any of the properties in question.
So it crosses my mind to wonder whether they're looking to acquire the domain for themselves, with or without personal claim privileges, or are trying to obtain it on behalf of their clients - who would be the band themselves.
Jim, as you pointed out they may be offering $1K to see the response and set a trap, or possibly, they may be trying to pull a fast one themselves.
Entertainment Law Digest [entlawdigest.com]
Billboard on Copyright, Trademark and Music Piracy [billboard.biz]
Would you feel like you just entered a bizarre world? Would you feel cheated? Like someone took something that was rightfully your's and your wife's - by virtue of creation? Life you were visited by a thief in the night? Like someone who has lost control of his further efforts to define and guide the perception of his new creation? Maybe like you are being stalked, by someone whose judgment you question?
Put the shoe on the other foot kamnn. If this was you - you and your wife just gave birth - and an ex-girlfried or ex-boyfriend - ostensibly "a fan" - registered your newborn daughters name to honor her and wouldn't release the name without "more money" - what would think of the ex-girlfriend? Would you say she was being moral, a good citizen, a real friend?
This isn't a complex legal issue. All it takes is to have the mind that allows one to "put the shoe on the other foot". To me that ability is a minimum requirement of having a conscience.
This was targeted behavior. The purported motive was "I really like you". Now, when it gets down to it, "I really like you" is sounding more like "I have a chance to make a buck by virtue of registering your creative . . and I want more bucks."
I welcome the balanced offer of opinions on this and I expected that, however there's no sugar coating this for me. This doesn't require a depth of knowledge about intellectual property law, though my close reading of the language of the OP's initial post suggests he's rather savvy about the issues. In my view the judgment call isn't even close. The answer isn't "more money". The answer is "it's someone else's child and there's no confusion about it". At a certain point the attempt to rationalize this type of behavior makes it repulsive, even if the initial impulse "to register" was supposedly innocent. (Note the reference in the OP to "other domains".)
The question present was frame this way:
I really think it's worth more than that. They obviously want it pretty badly.
It wasn't framed "I think they would pay more but I really didn't want money for it to start . . and I'm really a fan . . and I feel uncomfortable taking their money . . "
Maybe the registration shared in some qualities of innocence at the outset - in the impulse to register - but once the thought process arrived at "more money" the veneer washed away and something underlying that coating was revealed.
Kamnn, the question for me is this: Do you have any pangs of conscience about this? If so that's your mind trying to tell you something you ought to listen to.
There are plenty of obvious ways to deal with issues such as this before they ever arrive. As I've said dozens of times: "All you have to do is to ask" - before you ask.
IMHO, we are slipping into an era where the moral compass is spinning a bit, pointing increasingly towards "Just do it and if the heat comes you can always jump ship" or some version of that. (I've read the issue framed in somewhat clearer terms. Feel free to remind me.)
Here's the problem with the "jump from the burning ship" mentality: Sometimes the waters are shark infested and the sharks are in the mood to feed. Take, for example, the recent "take no prisoners" approach of Microsoft to people squatting on their names. They just sued them and refused to settle for the release of the domain. Microsoft didn't fire a warning shot. They fired torpedoes and let their sharks do the rest.
As my father has said so many times: A word to the wise is sufficient. For everyone else you can talk until you are blue in the face and it won't matter.
What are you going to do kamnn?
Here's a thought: Why don't you rock - and change - your friend's worlds and world view, by leading by example - giving up any claim to money, explaining how you reached that conclusion - and just doing what feels right, deep down, if it's there for you to feel deep down that this is someone else's baby? You never know how these things work out. You do the right thing and someday one of those friends thinks of you in a "Do I or don't I" situation, remembers what you did and why, and doesn't do something that otherwise - but for your choice and guidance - would have ended with that friend going to jail or some similar outcome. We touch many lives. Be mindful of the impression that touch leaves.
I'm not kidding about the karma part, the mention I made at the outset. What we do leaves ripples in the pond of life. I've made my fair share of ripples, not all good, and it's not a good thing to know that there are ripples that may still be emanating. It is not always easy - or possible - to unripple the pond.
I suspect there is more going on here than you appreciate but, in due course, you will notice the ripples. Indeed, where you are right now may be resonating with ripples from your past or those of other lives with whom your life intersects.
Calm the waters, then act. Choices are the makers of ripples.
[edited by: Webwork at 3:32 pm (utc) on June 20, 2007]
I explained that I had no intentions of ever selling it and I've never sold ANY domain before, so I didn't know how it all worked. I asked them to please forward an offer.
Now that I know they have the right to the name, I will just give it to them. I am a fan and I did not intend to make money from the site.
IMO, they shouldn't have offered to purchase it in the first place. They should have sent a nice email saying that they had the rights to it and asked me to transfer it over.
So far as them offering to pay that may simply reflect the guidance of their advisor. In this world, where cybersquatting IS rampant - and it's all about making money - some folks have taken the "it's cheaper/easier to pay" approach.
You also need to know that some of the "offer to pay" situations merely serve as traps - to prove, once you engage in "negotiation" - your bad faith registration. Even if the offer to buy/pay doesn't start off with that intention - to serve as bait or a ploy - when the "negotiations" turn sour the emails can later serve to prove bad faith. The price of bad faith, under the Anti-Cybersquatting act, runs about $100,000.00+ - for openers.
Please take my comments in this context: There are many others that read this forum, some of whom may have a harder time defining the issues, analyzing conduct and balancing right and wrong. Clearly you have arrived at what I'll call the right decision is rather short order. Nicely done.
Thank you for choosing the path you have. I'm already "feeling the ripples". ;0) Stick around and add your intelligence to this place. I have a sense that you have much to contribute. No kidding. No fluffy praise either.
[edited by: Webwork at 3:55 pm (utc) on June 20, 2007]
Before you transfer the domain be sure to consider marcia's post.
Not all artists' managers are created equal, and if they want to take the name for themselves, for their ownership, what happens then if the band decides to go on to another manager? It's entirely possible that technically, the managers actually don't have any rights to own that domain name, since they would have no trademark rights unless they'are also the record producers and/or own the label it's been produced and distributed through.
If at all posible try and contact the band, explain the situation and see who they would prefer the domain be tranfered to.
What is a bit bothersome is that whomever is "in charge" they didn't think to register the domain. So, you might want to think about that. The real fiduciary here would likely be the band's attorney or law firm, so you might ask for that information in the context of where you - kamnn - now stand. A fiduciary is someone in a position of trust that must always act in the best interest of someone else. The lawyer / law firm might have a better idea who ought to control the domain name in the larger scheme of a) who will act with the most certain fidelity; and, b) what is the best arrangement for long term stability of controlling the band's intellectual property.
My guess is that the band is incorporated (or should be) and therefore their associated domains should likely be held by (registered in the name of) the "band corporation", not any one individual. It's just a much better lond term approach. The lawyer for the band should be able to answer if there's a corporate entity and handle a transfer to the corporation. In a well managed situation the band's intellectual property should be "owned by the corporation", not any individuals (barring specific negotiations). That would include: Their trade name (band name), rights to receive the music, royalties from on-air performances, etc.
So many issues and so much to learn. And you just thought you were registering a domain name. However the music business IS big businss. You should see what their event/performance contracts and artist/promoter-label contracts look like. I've reviewed both forms of contract and they are 20-30+ page, legal size paper complexity monsters, in part because so many entities have their assets and interests invested and at risk.
[edited by: Webwork at 4:21 pm (utc) on June 20, 2007]
