Forum Moderators: not2easy
So how far are we to reaching a computer that you talk to saying "build me a web page with a form up here and this link and that link down there"?
After 20 years we seem to be going backwards, from the sleek concorde to the cumbersome a380.
Don't get me wrong, HTML is very limited and Frontpage makes you want to pull your teeth out but why is the obvious answer missed? Improve the stuff that saves time and makes life easier i.e. GUI with the ease of drag and drop, cut and paste and full word processor power editing.
Is it webmaster snobbery that we don't feel worthy unless we code each element laboriously til 2am?
I'm as guilty too, I was dragged kicking and screaming from dos into the world of win95 and I still miss not being able to nip into dos now but I wouldn't give my xp back for it.
css has its uses but only for a few add on bits that you can't get elsewhere easier. The problems that people are struggling for hours with on these css discussions prove only one thing. Use whatever systems and software available to get the job done quickly and professionaly then relax in the pub til 2am instead.
or am I wrong?
For me, CSS and web standards are the way to go: they make life easier, they are "backwards" friendly, they are SEO friendly and accessibility friendly.
I think the issue is more that people don't want to learn. They're used to what they know, and this "newfangled stuff" is "out of their league" and "too hard to understand". Honestly, it *didn't* take me long to wrap my head around CSS - and once I started understanding the basics, the rest came along naturally.
As the saying goes - you gotta learn the alphabet before you learn to read. We are a society of "I want it NOW" people, and a lot of the problms that people are encountering with CSS are a direct result of the unwillingness to go learn the alphabet. They cobble pieces of stuff here and there together, and then wonder why it's not working.
Yes, it's something new and different - but VERY powerful, and it makes life a lot easier in the coding world *when you understand what you're doing*.
Me, I haven't done a table-based site in over 4 years. (I remember staying up and playing with my Commodore 64, too - to make it chirp like a bird! - I think my mom still has that thing in her basement, actually...hmmm...wonder if it's worth anything these days?) I haven't seen 2 am in almost 2 years (and the only reason I saw it then was because I was in labor with my son ;) ) For coding reasons? Last time I stayed up that late was before I had clients LOL And I Still always manage to beat my deadlines - I contribute that to the fascinating world of CSS (and Notepad!)
It Did take some time for me to get my head around CSS as well and to stop pushing buttons to change colors or make bold in a wysiwyg.
And yes, handcoding gives you exactly what you want... not what the editor Thinks you want. And I won't even go into a rant about Frontpage... :)
I manage A LOT of sites and CSS saves me A LOT of time. I can change Huge sites with the tweaking of one file. I don't know how I would live without CSS, as it saves me invaluable time. I even have time to visit the pub now and then.
Unfortunately I had the Commodore Vic20, but I did manage to program a square house that had smoke coming from the chimney once (took 'till 6 in the morning). But my favorite thing was
10 Print "Hello Saucey"
20 Goto 10
which I could look at for Hours. :)
Then it was machine code (like anyone actually worked in base 16 numbers, in reality you might use an assembler). Today it's "CSS and Web Standards" gleefuly grasped by a handful of socially inept geeks who fail to realise the basic point that HTML is not a programming language, but a method for presenting data with easy navigation and limited presentation.
They even forget that CSS is simply a way of suggesting to a browser modifications to the default presentation for an item.
Matt
ahhh, this brings back memories. Could be a great idea for a webpage as it kept us all facinated at the wonders of our programming skills for so long.
number 1 spot in google for;
10 Print "Paris Hilton"
20 Goto 10
Now how can I get css to do this?
Once you understand how powerful it is, and how much it can save you time and effort, it all becomes worth it. I don't think there's any sort of snobishness or any of that crap. Rather, I think it's laziness that prevents most people from taking the time to learn to do it the right way.
Back in the day, HTML was very limited. But fortunately the web has grown and more things are possible. I'm not just talking about fancy presentation or CSS trickery. I'm referring to accessibility. Disabled people now have greater access to web content if pages are developed correctly, separating presentation from content, etc. There is much more to be gained than many people realize. A semantically correct HTML document should increase accessiblity, and at the same time be easily "styled" using CSS. For those who don't want to learn, or simply don't care, well I suspect it's probably laziness. Too lazy to care... too lazy to learn. It's a shame really.
Anyway, I find CSS saves me time, and allows me to manage a site's presentation much more quickly than if I had to visit every page and tweak a bunch of font tags or images, or backgrounds, etc.
It's taken me a while and some very expensive literature to get my head around CSS, and I'm just about in a position to say I know what I'm doing, but it's really difficult and time consuming to make something look as good as we could with tables.
And the accessibility thing, you really think CSS helps? If so, why are so many web designers now using background images in CSS for headers and other important pieces of text that a blind person cannot see?
Regards.
Chris "still up at 3am coding in CSS" B.
The problems that people are struggling for hours with on these css discussions prove only one thing.
Yep--that they're still learning. Nobody said it was going to be easy...
I've never had it easier than when I finally got my head wrapped around CSS and started using it
I agree whole-heartedly with this. I've been coding web sites and pages for a decade, and it has never been easier than it is now. The widespread implementation of a single set of standards beginning about the time of IE 5 was the beginning of--relatively speaking--a golden age for webpage authors.
Today it's "CSS and Web Standards" gleefuly grasped by a handful of socially inept geeks...
Who, having learned and properly understood the tools of their trade would, in any other industry be called 'professionals'...
fail to realise the basic point that HTML is not a programming language, but a method for presenting data with easy navigation and limited presentation.They even forget that CSS is simply a way of suggesting to a browser modifications to the default presentation for an item.
Your logic is faltering (absent?) Understanding of these two points is essential to learning how to employ html and css to their best advantage. It's these points that I see most newcomers to the field tripping over again and again.
10 Print "Paris Hilton"
20 Goto 10
Now how can I get css to do this?
body { background:transparent url(paris_hilton.gif) repeat 0 0; }
;-p
And the accessibility thing, you really think CSS helps? If so, why are so many web designers now using background images in CSS for headers and other important pieces of text that a blind person cannot see?
The smart ones--the professionals--aren't. Most of the image replacement [google.com] techniques available do work in screenreaders. Each of the various methods has bugs to be sure (most commonly that they do not work for [i]sighted[/] users if images are disabled), but inaccessibility to the partially / non-sighted is usually not one of them.
-b
GUI with the ease of drag and drop, cut and paste and full word processor power editing.
Dreamweaver?
10 Print "Paris Hilton"
20 Goto 10Now how can I get css to do this?
CSS is not a programming language. I would use PHP to code that myself.
Then if you want to make changed you can do so across your entire site by simply altering your css file.
Mack.
