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It is my believe that if SEO and SEP is done properly the two should go hand in hand. Working with the client in order to achieve a ROI on his investment will only add credibility to our profession.
Please let me know your thoughts
If you get #1 on every engine for a term that gets 100 searches/day worldwide, you have achieved a high rank for your client. If thats what they are paying you for, all well and good. Of course, doing that to everyone won't win you much repeat business :)
If you want to build a rep, and a client base, you need to provide value (ROI), just the same as any other investment. If none of your clients sees any benefit from paying you, you are unlikely to get any word-of-mouth referrals, and I can't speak for other members here, but we find that to be a significant source of new business
Using carefully phrased language, playing on the false assumptions of the uninitiated and unwary is a very old tactic, used all over the world, in all cultures. The honour(?) of the first recorded instance probably goes to the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, and the people who use it are often snakes themselves
Let's see if I don't get myself into a muddle... I'd say yes there is a difference - you can market a site and you can market a product.
Now, one always hopes that good SEP will lead to sales and increase income, but I guess it's safer to sell SEO on its own because you can't guarantee the client will earn money from visitors to his/her site. What SEO achieves (or aims to achieve) is visitors to that site - whether someone buys or enters dealing with the site owner is not something we can promise to anyone, simply because the site owner's product may not meet the visitor's demands, price, etc. What we provide is the placement, not the purchase.
Make sense?
We do this for all our clients and hold ourselves accountable for results. We have 100% renewal rate on annual clients we have had for 3 years.
I guess if a company just wants to do positioning and get paid that is their choice. I prefer a long lasting relationship with our clients and word of mouth referrals.
No we cannot guarantee that a viewer will purchase or utilize site services or products. But return on investment is not always a purchase.
A more active participation in the overall goals and business strategies of clients produces a more effective and efficient strategy for positioning. The mentality of telling your clients "you choose the keywords, I will get you positioned" is not always a good way to retain clients or produce effective results. Any CSEO can get ambiquios traffic to a site. Targeting that traffic is vital to the success.
We as professionals should not be so narrow.
Well if you're not going to, then I will. :)
The SEO landscape is changing rapidly. Not only has there been a big shift to paid programs, we also now find ourselves in a space dominated by only one free-crawling engine.
Techniques and strategies that not too long ago were condsidered standard "tools of the trade" have now been lumped into the category previously only occupied by gamblers and pornographers.
In order to survive in the future, I think most companies/individuals in this business will need to come to the understanding that you need to be a Search Engine Marketing Consultant, not a Search Engine Optimizer.
Making that transition will require becoming extremely fluent in any area that has the slightest connection to the activity of typing words into a little white box. That means everything from conducting intial keyword research and consulting on effective site design, to developing PPC and search related banner advertising programs. ( how many current SEO's know their local Google and Yahoo sales reps by first name?)
But most importantly, the search engine marketing consultant of the future needs to bring to the table the ability to effectively track search related ROI.
If you're bringing the horse to the water, but he's not drinking, you better be able to help the client figure out why he's not thirsty.
If you can't, you will lose out because there is a large number of consultants from other types of marketing who are quite comfortable being held accountable who are moving into the search engine space.
I agree fully with you WebGuerrilla. The long-term success of SEO demands that the marketing consulting must be able to demonstrate the effectiveness of his service.
The guys holding the purse strings think that they are being sold snake oil.
The only conflict that I have while helping to get the horse to drink after leading it to water is when I am approached by a site owner
(guys holding the purse strings) who's products are themselves snake oil.
Given the ludicrous handicaps many clients impose on SEOs, I can't blame them for narrowing the scope of their abilities/responsibilities.
I work for a web consultancy as a "web marketer" and definitely am of the same mind as a number of the people who have contributed to this conversation; I see the search landscape heading toward PPC and feel that there will be increasing importance on doing PPC-ROI well.
We've developed capacity in this area and have tools to track ROI on a keyterm-by-keyterm basis, skills to optimize ROI across the board, i.e. good ad writing strategies, good performance tracking of 'landing page conversion', etc.
The problem is that we are finding it difficult to sell these services to anyone beyond our current web development clients precisely because these services require a more wholistic and integrated relationship between marketing and site management. I find that companies are wary of being pitched "website management/ownership services" when their articulated want is simply "more traffic". They feel that they are being upsold and that the marketing partner is trying to edge in on the rest of the IT budget.
I don't try to sell SEO or SEP services, but know that it would be much easier to do so since these are tangible, compartmentalized and relatively mainstream services (McMarketing McServices).
Unless the client really understands the state of search on the internet, the great importance of performance tracking in general, etc. ROI services are a tough sell.
Are any of you marketing consultants? Are up against the same thing? How do you reduce risk for the prospect and get a foot in the door?
>> I find that companies are wary of being pitched "website management/ownership services" when their articulated want is simply "more traffic"
ericwinter, good points. I have trouble with explaining to most of our clients just what services we CAN offer. The core of our business is web design, and our clients mostly belong in the S end of the SME market. They don't really understand technology in general, the 'net even less, and SEs not at all.
After having spent what is to them large amounts of cash on a website, they want it to produce some results in terms of new business. Finding out that they have to pay for that too really upsets some of them, particularly the ones who are recieving spam from "SEO" companies ("we submit you to 500,000 SEs for just £50. Per month. For the rest of your natural life) and just don't understand how much harm they could do themselves by wading in effectively blind.
>> ...their articulated want is simply "more traffic"
It sounds so simple doesn't it? :)
See if this sounds familiar to anyone :
"You want to do WHAT?"
"But I only updated the content 18 months ago"
"I've been working on the keywords tag..."
"My friends 17 year old son says..."
They often don't (or won't) understand that there is no magic wand anyone can wave to transfrom their site from a moth-eaten 5 page waste of bandwidth, into a gleaming, fully-functional, dynamically-driven corporate business hoover, sucking in visitors from all over the globe and dazzling them into buying thier widgets from a tin-pot outfit working from a decrepit shed in a rundown industrial estate.
They often see it in black and white though, "If I pay you £x, I want these rankings, on these engines for these terms. By the end of the week". Once you sit them down and talk to them, they often get it quite quickly, but it can be painful, getting over that first hurdle
>>>>. An SEO professional made the statement "it is our job to position our clients in the top ten, we do not focus on whether or not that client receives a ROI".
We can market, advertiste, promote, etc., the website to the search engines and the Internet as a whole. We can bring the traffic to the site, and make sure that it is targeted traffic. The website needs to sell the product.
If the website is confusing, ugly, or anything else that is going to deter a purchase......that is not the SEO or SEM's fault.
I think that most, and if they don't, they should, SEO or SEM professionals and firms now include site analysis and things like this that will help the website in the long run. I know that when we get a potential client we thoroughly examine every aspect of the site to make sure that everything is in running order and ready to go. If we think it needs a redesign, propose it. If we think that the site needs a total restructuring, propose it. You see where this is going.
I do agree with all of you that we all need to widen our scope of services, and what services we offer. I don't know if the name needs to change from SEO to SEM, but that is a matter of opinion. Whether we are Searh Engine Marketers or Search Engine Optimizers, we are going to offer the same services to our clients. It is the emphasis that is going to change.
...Absolutely agerhart. One factor that is often overlooked is this... SEO Professionals are very much misunderstood in regards to the services they in fact provide.
Far too often, the client cares not for their rankings, but for their increase in visitors and web site sales / inquiries.
They want a ROI, but not necessarily a raise in the ranks... So, in order to assist them, many an SEO offers to help a client manage and maintain Overture accounts, AdWords accounts, Advertising spots, and so on...
So, perhaps that makes the more resoureceful self-labeled SEO an SEMC. Regardless, it makes what the client want - happen.
My $0.02.
~ Eric
Are any of you marketing consultants? Are up against the same thing? How do you reduce risk for the prospect and get a foot in the door?
Yes, we are SEO, SEP, CCS (customer conversion specialist)and we work with developers, advertising agencies, and direct with clients. Most clients do not understand the nature of the search engines and Internet marketing in general. 85% of what we do is education. The client should understand what the process entails and that it will not be a "magic wand" that will get traffic to their site but careful research planning and implementation.
"horse to water thing"
This is a bad analogy that has been way overused as an excuse.
We do not focus on site development but our job is to ensure that the site is efficient and effective in capturing the audience that views it and encouraging them to interact. That is a vital part of "optimization".
You can sell snake oil to people who use snake oil. If you are targeting snake oil users with the keyword phrases that you research and recommend to your client and you optimize your site to snake oil users, then your efforts will produce success for your client.
Part of being an SEO consultant is informing your client of how many snake oil users are potentially out there. Then his expectations will not be over blown when results begin to occur.
I am really proud to see so many well informed SEO professionals out there. Keep up the feedback people!
I've always operated as an "Internet Marketing Specialist"...largely getting work by recommendation...I'm currently on a long term contract and I'll be an International Internet Marketing Specialist when I next start loking for work
consequently my brief has always been to include the whole spectrum of Internet and web activity and integrate it into the company's overall marketing strategy...that means rebuilding the website where necessary, it also means things like altering standard company email sig files, encouraging people to take part in relevant newsgroups (with the right sig)...the whole lot as well as some SEO
Holly: "Most clients do not understand the nature of the search engines and Internet marketing in general. 85% of what we do is education."
you are absolutely right...that has to be stage one when dealing with any client...otherwise all we can do is a quick temporary fix...which might be a lucrative way to operate in the short term, but isn't something I'd want to be doing as a long term career
In some circumstances that could be enough. Some will pay by the keyword and/or by the page, and have had their own mode of marketing which has been successful for them. The only thing lacking might be the search engine rankings; maybe they've got no rankings and they're getting little or no traffic, or could be ranked for keywords that will bring them more visitors. That might be all they need, and that's all that would be cost-effective for them. Once they get the visitors they can market to them by their usual means.
TallTroll:
>From the strictest possible viewpoint, he is perfectly correct. If you advertise your services as being designed to achieve high rankings, you are saying nothing about whether those rankings will necessarily lead to extra traffic
The focus can only go so far as they are willing to pay for services. When people pay for a movie ticket, it's still up to them to buy their own popcorn and candy, it's not like an ocean cruise with entertainment, tours and meals included. Basically, they have to get as much as they're willing to pay for.
>it's safer to sell SEO on its own because you can't guarantee the client will earn money from visitors to his/her site.
That's true. If they're told that certain items are pulling a lot of traffic and that they should add more of that product line to the site, it's their choice whether they do or not; if they don't, they're losing business.
>What SEO achieves (or aims to achieve) is visitors to that site - whether someone buys or enters dealing with the site owner is not something we can promise to anyone, simply because the site owner's product may not meet the visitor's demands, price, etc. What we provide is the placement, not the purchase.
True, because the control stops at that point. from then on it's the client's responsibility; as far as straight SEP is concerned, the job is done. For example, if they don't get better photos taken, they might lose sales from that deficiency. No marketer can be held responsible, it's purely a client decisionn once it's been suggested.
If in some cases they're paying for design of a site with placement included, the responsibility stops at a certain point, depending on what's been contracted for. Some do expect unlimited total effort to be made on their behalf indefinitely, even when it's been clearly delineated - which is impossible for the cost of what the original site and placement are. It's not like paying $199 for lifetime web hosting and never having to pay again.
If they want further services, then the scope is broadened. The limitation is based on whatever's agreed to, and what a client is willing to pay for. If they want links done for them, or want them checked out to see if they're OK, that's got to be a billable service.
>think that most, and if they don't, they should, SEO or SEM professionals and firms now include site analysis and things like this that will help the website in the long run.
It's sounding more and more like it's wise to have a selection of packages available so they'll know what the options are that are available. Then, they know exactly what the scope is and if they start asking more questions or requesting that more be done, they can be invited to upgrade to a different level of service. And it won't be news to them because they'll have seen the choices even before they first started.
The problem with this thinking (packaging) is that one thing is not going to lead to success. It is the cultivation of multiple services pointed at achieving the goal of that client. True some clients may not want to pay for this or for that. What we tell them is if you want success, this is how you will get it. You can't sell someone a car and then ask if they would like the tires to go with it.
OK.. let me ask this, so we can pinpoint it and get down to clarifying some issues and make practical use of the information we're discussing and receiving here. There's an awful lot of what could be called "advice" that can be given that comes under the category of consulting. And of course, when only certain services have been contracted for, generally clients will start asking questions about additional things. The answers and explanations for those questions constitute consulting, most often beyond the scope of what the services were that were agreed to.
So at what point does it stop being performance of the specific tasks agreed to between the parties, and paid for by the client, and then start to become free consulting services being given each time an email is sent asking a question?
Remember, if the client opted for a limited set of services, such as search engine placement for 5 keywords/5 pages, for example, and they did not want to commit to any more - they will eventually come up with some more ideas. And who will they go to? Say they've got rankings and then the idea may hit them that maybe they could set up an affiliate program and have other people selling their goods. Or they want to know about different banner advertising, or want to start a newsletter. These are not included in SEP, but they'll come running with questions nevertheless. Is there an unlimited obligation, or should there be a variety of service levels available with different options included in each? Going out the gate, they choose one from column A, one from column B. When they then want to add a "dish" from Column C - they need to contract for additional services, imho. Getting them placements does not seem like they're got a carte blanche for unlimited information a.k.a. consulting services for an unlimited period of time.
When a potential client wants to know in advance what domain name to choose - is that given as a freebie they can walk away with, or told that it's part of onsulting AFTER services have been contracted for? If after services are performed they want information on affiiliate programs, is that given as a freebie, or is a specialized consultant recommended?
We have to delineate between what we offer and what clients are willing to commit themselves to, or we'll end up not knowing where our own boundaries lie. Well written proposals and contracts are probably as much for our own benefit as they are for negotiating and closing deals; they can serve as a reminder for us in setting adequate boundaries for ourselves that are tangible in document form, to remind us what we offered as well as what they accepted as services.
I could quote specific instances, but I do believe it's better altogether for us to leave personal references out, so the whole thread won't turn into looking like a list of everyone's CV (like our Commercial Exchange is supposed to be...LOL) and we can deal with principles that are broad enough for anyone to be able to apply. So I'm trying to keep it general on my part and not get into my own personal trials and experiences, positive and negative.
The basic finality is this from my personal view - where do we draw the line between clients' commitments and their expectations; and how do we handle the inevitable gap?
Delineation, where do you draw the line. I think that off the bat if you know a client's product/service you can recommend through contractural agreements what that client will need to get a ROI on his Internet investment. You are correct that you can't go in with an open ended agreement unless you set up a consulting agreement for 100 hours/month at so much per hour. Then they could bombard you with all the advise they wanted....up to 100 hours.
The point that I am trying to make is the client does not always know what needs to be done to make his/her Internet prescence a success. It is our job as professionals that know our field to advise them on the best track or route to achieve this. If we know our jobs, then the services that we agree to will be directed toward the goals set up.
If research is done and you know that client's competition and target audience habits on the Internet, then you know the combination of activities that need to be performed to reach them.
Take our profession to the next level. There are not 1500 viable search engines and 5 keywords are not going to cut it in most cases.
It is really a preference I guess. If all you want to provide as an SEO professional is I will get you ranked in the top 20 for 5 keywords, then that is your job. I am afraid that it will not result to a high level of client satisfaction. You could say "hey, I did my job" ...too bad it didn't work for you.
Let me ask this, what happens if search engines no longer depend on protocol from optimization?
Notice how the contributors to this thread be divided in SEO’s and SEM’s
-SEO’s who simply focus on achieving top rankings and generating traffic.
-SEM’s who focus on generating ROI for their clients
The most interesting thing about focusing on generating ROI for your client is that it opens up the possibility of entering a mutual beneficial partnership where you will make money if and only if your client is making money. As some of you have already mentioned there is no guarantee that the traffic you generate will convert to sales, which only means that you can forget about measuring ROI as Cost Per Click/Price Per Click. You need to focus on conversions and thereby Cost Per Action/Price Per Action.
There may be several conversion barriers, which we are not in control of and, which are not our responsibility. However, you can easily calculate the benefit of the cost of solving a conversion problem and determine if it is cost effective. Assuming that you remove a barrier and double the conversion rate both you and you client will profit. In other words you can choose between doubling the traffic or educate and advise you client to take action and remove the barrier.
Of course there are certain risks involved with this kind of set up but it can prove to be very lucrative and to the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as free money.
The market is ready for partnerships and performance deals. This is not a prediction. It is the new role of the SEO and money is our motivation.
I think most of the customers we deal with would be reluctant to share with us the intimate details of how much business they generated as a result of the work that we undertake, possibly for fear of a price rise, but more likely because, to be frank, we don't need to know.
I stopped looking at rankings a while back and tried to concentrate (as Brett alluded to in another discussion) on getting a wide range of terms in the top 30 than 1 at number 1. That has manifested into more general traffic for customers but it has to be quantifiable and this is where I think we suffer.
Many of our hosting buddies offer cheap and cheerful hosting, but in doing so don't give access to raw data. Without that data I feel like I am flying blind so I decided to go out and get some servers so that I can migrate customers across and deal with the issues of handling their business in the best way possible rather than relying on third parties, who invariably let your customer down.
Unless I can vet the facilities of the hosting company (assuming they don't choose mine) then I'd rather not deal with them, may appear elitist, but in this line of work you can't guess. I need to know every search, every spider visit, every traffic from links and most of the hosting companies don't provide them, to try to sell it cheap. Well cheap is not the answer here, not for businesses that are serious about making a profit from the internet.
People keep going on about whether you'll still be around in a year etc.. I have one word for you ENRON! Nobody knows who or what is going to be around next year, but one thing is for sure, I think as an industry we need to get our heads together, come up with some standards, implement some sort of self regulation and then maybe we'll be invited to sit down at the outset of new projects rather than having to pick up part way through and try to salvage something from the wreck.
My advice to any SEO's out there. If you haven't got expertise in a related discipline (i.e. you may be poor at design) then form strategic partnerships with other companies that could help you gain customers and work together on projects. Better to have 50% of a pie than 100% of nothing.
I do SEM within an internet marketing company whose services include design, branding, e-mail marketing etc etc. I find that these areas are complimentary and most of my business comes from customers who have engaged with us for something else i.e design. As a result, I'm never short of work.
I see SEO as being a dead duck. Most clients worth keeping (i.e return business with deep pockets) simply aren't interested in rankings if those rankings don't translate directly to the bottom line. In order to achieve this feat, I've found you need to be in at the highest level possible, preferably when the client is designing strategy. That way, you can align different areas to achieve the same goal.
I doubt I could be as effective, or make as much money, out on my own. The partnership thing works well for me.
PS: Hey...100 posts. I feel old :)
(edited by: feeder at 1:35 am (utc) on Mar. 12, 2002)
Is SEO dead? No
Must SEO convert traffic to sales? No
form strategic partnerships with other companies that could help you gain customers and work together on projects. - webdiversity
I feel that’s exactly true and what I’ve been working towards myself. I’ve connected with a designer locally who is also strong technically (my huge problem personally is with tech stuff – ugh). We’ve been doing a bit of work together and learning how each other works, each others skills and I’m feeling really positive that we’re moving in the right direction. I think it was born first out of necessity. There are things I just can’t do and don’t want to learn but there many skills and abilities I can offer. The other benefit is I found him locally so we can meet for coffee and talk shop.
In the course of business today and for a small business to succeed I think combining talents is an option not to be ignored. We can all stretch our abilities while leaning on each other. What form it takes can be as varied as the people involved. There are not many folks who can do it all or if they can - are as good as they could be if they spread the talents around. I figure a really great group of talent would include SEO/marketing/advertising skills, design skills, technical skills, a great graphic artist and terrific copywriting for content and sales. With that in mind it’s not only the SEO’s who should be seeking out complimentary talent but also, development teams who should be looking for the best and brightest SEO talent to fill out their teams. Without that, you have to learn it all yourself and who has the time?
I believe that cream always rises to the top. I believe that’s true in website development. I think that the more options you can offer, with a complete package that doesn’t guarantee sales but helps them along, is a sure equation for more success.
