Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.161.100.24

Forum Moderators: martinibuster

Message Too Old, No Replies

Google called me today

This after I swtiched to YPN

     
8:06 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:May 27, 2005
posts:39
votes: 0


Got a call from Adsense today, asking me to switch back to their product. I switched to Yahoo in September.

We talked about the number of reasons I'm currently staying with Yahoo (mainly $$$), and what it would take for me to switch back to Adsense (again, $$$).

I also got confirmation of something I had only thought was true. Apparently with Smart Pricing, if you have multiple sites, and one of them performs badly, it will lower your earnings not only for that 1 site, but for all sites in the account.

Anyone else get a call?

8:10 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:June 10, 2004
posts:2076
votes: 0


I also got confirmation of something I had only thought was true. Apparently with Smart Pricing, if you have multiple sites, and one of them performs badly, it will lower your earnings not only for that 1 site, but for all sites in the account.

I'm not sure that this will actually shock anyone, but just to make sure, did they actually confirm this categorically?

8:10 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:Feb 21, 2005
posts:2264
votes: 0


Apparently with Smart Pricing, if you have multiple sites, and one of them performs badly, it will lower your earnings not only for that 1 site, but for all sites in the account.

Can I ask what's the basis for this? The reason I ask is because I have one Adsense account with a single site that's doing absolutely fantastically on all metrics but another site on that account is very dismal indeed.

wizarddave

8:11 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Inactive Member
Account Expired

 
 


Wow! I have AS on about a dozen of my sites, but only 5 actually make money. Are you advising that for publishers like me, my revenues would go up if I remove the AS code from sites that don't make anything?
8:22 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jomaxx is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

joined:Nov 6, 2002
posts:4768
votes: 0


Isn't that just another way of saying that your account has a single smart pricing rating?

You easily turn that around and say that if you have one GOOD site then it will bring UP the earnings of every one of your sites.

8:39 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

joined:Sept 20, 2004
posts:2304
votes: 0


and one of them performs badly, it will lower your earnings not only for that 1 site, but for all sites in the account

This I tend not to believe since I have 100+ sites and the earning variables, with obstensibly similar ads, during a day can be huge, with Adlinks this can be as much as 1,000% per click without even trying...!

8:45 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:May 27, 2005
posts:39
votes: 0


I'm not sure that this will actually shock anyone, but just to make sure, did they actually confirm this categorically?

Yes, while talking to the rep, I was telling him how my site had been affected by smart-pricing and how that was a factor that led me to switch to YPN. First he asked if I had other sites that might not be performing as well, he then went on to tell me how if I do have a site that displays adsense ads, and it performs badly, and in turn gets a low smartpricing effect on it, it affects all sites within that Adsense account. I voiced my preference that this should be done at the channel level, but who's to say if that will ever happen.

Additionally, he just called me back so I was talking to him a bit more while writing this response. So here's a few more things I learned.

Smartpricing is re-evaluated for sites weekly. So if you make an adjustment to your site to increase conversions (some how) then it may take a week for smartpricing to re-adjust how much it pays you per click.

Also, not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but Adwords uses a 30-day cookie to track conversions. So theoretically, a click could take 30 days to convert, which would mean that your smart-pricing could take 30 days + 1 week to re-adjust for new conversions.

Also, this one is really exciting, but it's also the only one that he's yet to confirm for me. He believes that I can use Adsense Image Ads on the same pages that I'm using Yahoo contextual ads! He's going to get back to me on this one.

Kurt

8:57 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

System Operator from US 

incredibill is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Jan 25, 2005
posts:14664
votes: 99


Got a call from Adsense today

<faints>

Took me a week just to get a stinking reply from support!

9:33 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:May 13, 2003
posts:442
votes: 0


Thanks for sharing kurtpdx!

Great to see some confirmation to this. I'm specially happy to hear the bit about the re-calculation.

10:17 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

New User

joined:Oct 17, 2005
posts:23
votes: 0


Great information! Thanks!

I definitely can testify to the 'weekly' nature of smart pricing. It's like the site pops up and makes really good EPC for a few days and then BAM it's knocked back down again for about a week. Then the cycle repeats.

Smart pricing blows because there is absolutely no feedback from Google. If they would send out an email and say we're decreasing our EPC for your site because of X,Y, and Z it would be much different.

It reminds me of working with clients that won't tell you what they want but they are not satisfied and are bad mouthing you to others behind your back.

Google has actually found a way to program human like passive/aggressive behavior into their publishing system. And it sucks as much with adsense as it does with real people.

hunderdown

10:33 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Inactive Member
Account Expired

 
 


This confirms what I've said in the past--that if you have pages or channels with no or very few clicks, you will actually increase your EARNINGS by taking the AdSense code off of them. Pages like that reduce your overall CTR and that in turn is factored into smart pricing.

This has to be done selectively, of course, and it may not work on all sites. Other factors may come into play...

10:34 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Aug 2, 2005
posts:501
votes: 0


Agreed - and Agreed.

We Mid-Westerners have to stick together ;)

I'm glad this came to the table. I posted that I was nearly 100% sure of this after several tests I ran.

I saw significant, repeatable statistical trends in EPC on ALL of my sites - by adding/removing AdSense from the forums on one site.

While these forums were a very substantial piece of my revenue - dropping AS from them, was the best move I could have made.

Revenue dropped for about a week, as I lost about 80% of my total cliks. It slowly rose over the course of the following week, each day - until it was nearly at the same level.

I have been substituting other CPC programs on low CTR pages... specifically programs that do not factor CTR into the EPC. This allows me to retain a good EPC with AdSense, and not throw away the page views that Google doesn't appreciate.

I'm sure that someone will want to challenge CTR being a factor of EPC. You would have to show me the source code itself to convince me otherwise.

Here's some practical advice - If you want to know how to be successful with Google; Every one of Google's programs is engineered to maximize Google's revenue. As a result:

In AdWords - if you are making more money for Google (high ctr), Google rewards you.

In AdSense - if you are making more money for Google (high ctr), Google rewards you.

Starting to see a pattern?

[edited by: NoLimits at 10:52 pm (utc) on Oct. 25, 2005]

10:42 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

joined:Sept 20, 2004
posts:2304
votes: 0


that if you have pages or channels with no or very few clicks, you will actually increase your EARNINGS by taking the AdSense code off of them. Pages like that reduce your overall CTR and that in turn is factored into smart pricing.

I need to hear this from Google itself since I have just checked all my channels etc and the sites with the fewest clicks actually have the highest CTRs and eCPMs!

Are you actually saying that these specific sites, which have the higher, combined statisical earnings, down value the earnings from my higher earning sites through smart pricing?

These is getting way too complicated...

10:53 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Apr 14, 2005
posts:644
votes: 0


This confirms what I've said in the past--that if you have pages or channels with no or very few clicks, you will actually increase your EARNINGS by taking the AdSense code off of them.

while your hypothesis may be true, i dont think it is confirmed. google has always said that smart pricing is directly related to conversions. it is my understanding that conversions are calculated based on the percentage of users who click and then carry on a complete a sale, sign up for a newsletter, or complete some other action.

in other words, you could have a low CTR but a high conversion rate (unless conversions are calculated based on impressions, which i doubt). this in turn would mean that you could have a low CTR but with favorable smart pricing.

although CTR may provide some loose insight into conversions, i can think of many cases in which they would be inversely related.

in your case, CTR may provide an approximation for conversions, in which case removing ads from low CTR pages helps you, but i don't think this is evidence that it will work in all or even most cases.

10:56 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Apr 14, 2005
posts:644
votes: 0


Here's some practical advice - If you want to know how to be successful with Google; Every one of Google's programs is engineered to maximize Google's revenue. As a result:

In AdWords - if you are making more money for Google (high ctr), Google rewards you.

In AdSense - if you are making more money for Google (high ctr), Google rewards you.

while this may be true if adsense was the only game in town, this arrangment incentivizes publishers to remove google ads from some pages and put up competitor's ads - is google really so shortsighted that they would indirectly incentivize this type of behavior?

11:12 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Aug 2, 2005
posts:501
votes: 0


I do believe so.

This is why I believe we are not given specifics into the factors of Smart Pricing other than conversion rate is one ingredient, which should be a given. I don't think that Google expects people to remove AdSense from their low CTR pages. They have the industry on lock down as of current... have you removed them from your low CTR pages?

When talking in terms of low CTR here folks, I'm talking extremely low CTR. One forum I run dwarfs the pageviews of all my other sites' pageviews combined. This drags down the CTR to extremely, horridly low levels.

11:38 pm on Oct 25, 2005 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jomaxx is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

joined:Nov 6, 2002
posts:4768
votes: 0


But in your example, removing the forum ads did not result in more income. It resulted in LESS income from AdSense.

The interesting question, which has some suggestive anecdotal support but IMO is not yet proven, is whether removing ads from the lowest-performing sites can result in an increase in AdSense earnings in the long run.

12:01 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:June 10, 2005
posts:28
votes: 0


I can confirm (at least in my niche) that having AdSense in poor performing environments is costly.

1) When I had first started with AdSense, I placed ads on ALL of my sites, to include the Geocities pages. About a month ago, I removed AdSense from the Geocities pages and my eCPM increased a full percent (please, no "you could have been banned" comments).

2) A week later, I tried removing my ads from my forum (which yeilded next to nothing anyhow) and again, an increase.

For the last three weeks, I have done nothing to my ads and my revenue continues on an upward trend. My CTR went up a little too! :-) Probably due to better targeting.

I hope this is helpful to some!

-GL

12:14 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Jan 19, 2004
posts:562
votes: 0


I have a development server on my LAN and I have been putting the adsense on the pages. They get quite a few impressions but zero clicks. I wonder if that is hurting me overall.
12:25 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:June 10, 2005
posts:28
votes: 0


IMHO, bad performance is the key! Change your optimization direction. Post me with your URL and I will see if I can lend a helping hand.

-GL

12:31 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:May 13, 2003
posts:442
votes: 0


I need to hear this from Google itself since I have just checked all my channels etc and the sites with the fewest clicks actually have the highest CTRs and eCPMs!

But how is the CTR?

A site with very few clicks from a small crowd of very targeted users might not bring on smart pricing.
However, a site with loads of page views from many visitors (like the forum mentioned above) would, in my experience affect your CTR quite negatively.

12:44 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

joined:June 13, 2005
posts:199
votes: 0


OK just removed adsense from a very low PI but highly targeted site. Lets see what happens. eCPM was abysmal for 3 days after an all time high.. :\

ann

12:53 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:Jan 25, 2002
posts:2605
votes: 0


Kurtpdx,

You must have a humongous website with earnings out of this world for adsense to call you.

I find it hard to believe that you would be writing a message on this board while actually talking to them on the phone.

Isn't it in bad taste to spread google's business on the board? No wonder Google does not call webmasters if this is what they can expect from those who are extended the courtesy.

Just my doubting 2 cents

12:58 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

joined:June 1, 2004
posts:1987
votes: 0


wery wery interesting...

I had postulated many months ago that removing adsense from low CTR pages on my site seems to boost overall performance and total income.

However, I added adsense back to every page in early september when things were tanking - trying to squeeze every last penny outof the site before I went broke.

Recently (about 8-9 days ago) I move all those low CTR/EPC ads over to Ypn and what do you know.. today my EPC shot up by about 25% so far today.

An aside: interestingly it seems Y may have a similar system since I was getting hugh Epc on those page when I first moved them over to Y but they have dwindled to 30-40% of their starting values.

Now I'm trying get the PHP script to work in those pages to alternate ads - maybe this will reduce the bad affects of these poor performing pages.

12:58 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

joined:June 13, 2005
posts:199
votes: 0


I have just plotted a density curve of my eCPM and CTR data. Funnily enough the CTR has a much higher variation than my eCPM. I think the algo tries definitely to keep a certain value :\. But it's time dependent data so not 100% correctly pooled.

On the time series data I have now moved from very high variation at the beginning [as would be expected as the smartpricing thingy has to learn] to a relativ stable rise. Now the thing is flatlining on the fitting curve and the variation has increased. Not sure if that's the algorithm trying to find a way out of a local maximum or just Jagger background noise. :\

1:05 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:June 10, 2005
posts:28
votes: 0


Well, I took some time and did some digging on "kurtpdx". Seems he has a bunch of sites. One that is 3 years old that gets over 25K uniques a day. I'd say that Google has some interest there! Let's take a listen to what he has to tell us. :-)

-GL

1:09 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Aug 15, 2002
posts:520
votes: 0


This would be a good time for AdSenseAdvisor to step in with some guidance before we all go pulling Adsense off millions of pages.

Anyone know how to conjure him/her?

or Jenstar maybe?

1:17 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:June 10, 2005
posts:28
votes: 0


Wait a second...just because someone is having success from YPN, doesn't mean we as publishers should panic. Hang in there and see where the dust settles. Remember, Google started this...I bet they'll end up finishing it too! ;)

I'm with Google all the way!

-GL

1:34 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member

joined:Apr 14, 2005
posts:644
votes: 0


I'm with Google all the way!

don't forget that google admits to smartpricing - smartpricing is real. google says that it is tied to conversions, and the question is whether there is a corelation between CTR or eCPM and conversions. i bet that in some cases there is a corelation, and in some cases there isnt.

removing ads from your pages may improve overall performance, but it seems prudent for you to consider the following if you want to attempt a test:

1) make sure to test for at least a week, because purportedly that is how long it will take smartpricing to take effect.

2) make sure you do it on enough of your pages so that you get meaningful data (ie. the test has to be large enough so that you can confidently tie your improved (or declining) revenue to the test).

3) i would wait until after update jagger has settled down if you get any traffic from google - fluctuations in google traffic over the next week or so can certainly affect your adsense bottom line.

2:05 am on Oct 26, 2005 (gmt 0)

New User

10+ Year Member

joined:June 10, 2005
posts:28
votes: 0


I think in my post that I stated I waited at least a week. 3 weeks to be exact. Please, I have read sooooooo many post regarding this issue to know that taking your ads off of poor performing pages is the right thing to do! Is this discussion closed or do we need more proof?

-GL

This 82 message thread spans 3 pages: 82
 

Join The Conversation

Moderators and Top Contributors

Hot Threads This Week

Featured Threads

Free SEO Tools

Hire Expert Members