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Google Wins Yahoo

The guessing is over -- Yahoo stays with Google and debuts new look.

     
9:29 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Just announced that Yahoo has renewed with Google, and this also explains the major changes that some people have seen at Yahoo this week. This thread covers that:
[webmasterworld.com...]

Also posted a story at my site -- if a moderator wants to do a direct link, pretty easy to spot.

9:39 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Listening to the conference call right now.. did I hear that this renewal was non-exclusive? I'm going to have to go back and relisten to that portion of the call.
9:39 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Figures. With Yahoo owning 10% of Google, long term, it's a good investment for them. :)
9:40 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This kind of sucks. I wish they would have left the search results the way they were.
9:41 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Happy days ;)

Thanks Danny!

Nick

9:42 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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True. If that format stays...it's not so good for those who submit lots of stuff to Yahoo. :( (I hope they are just tinkering...)
9:43 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Nice article Danny too...

The Yahoo! Changes are going to affect lots of people... Bah sucks if they think I am renewing my $299 next year....

[edited by: nutsandbolts at 9:45 pm (utc) on Oct. 9, 2002]

9:45 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Unfortunately Google will own the search market eventually - a monopoly is never good.

Inktomi is done :(

If you ask me, this is not good, I was hoping someone else got Yahoo search results business.

9:47 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I scanned through the "New! We've improved Yahoo! Search" with google highlighted.....using my google toolbar :)

Not one mention of google at first glance.

Seems they don't want to promote the "powered by google" aspect anymore.....very discrete ;)

9:49 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Yahoo proved that its commited to best search resuts than a temporary boost in revenue...

Google is still the best SE (even after this months somewhat degraded index) and kicking it out would have caused yahoo serious public relation damage.

I am very happy with this even though my rankings suck in this months update :( ...

9:51 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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"Analysts said they wanted to know how much of Yahoo's strength came from the Overture deal."

[biz.yahoo.com...]

Whatever it is, it will surely be more next quarter, thanks in large part to the improved algo. I kinda figured google brought a little something "extra" to the table for this round of negotiations.

9:51 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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... Can you hear the affiliate site owners jumping from windows as we speak?
9:51 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I just read over that new link on the Yahoo serp about their results. No mention of Google, anywhere - that means more than likely, it's not exclusive.

So what else might they work into the mix, given that? Hmm...

9:51 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I have no problem with them keeping Google. That is a very good move on their part. What I don't like is the directory listings that people paid $299 for are now "buried". I had great Yahoo listings and now those are semi-worthless in terms of traffic generation. Oh, well. I have survived worse.
9:57 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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"Inktomi is done "

Yup , yesterday they announced a 20% layoff :)

[news.com.com...]

Next 100% Layoff (chapter 11) ! ... :)

[edited by: gopi at 10:00 pm (utc) on Oct. 9, 2002]

10:00 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I'm glad that Yahoo renewed their choice of Google to provide search services.

Just me speaking as a private person, not as anything official: I've personally always respected Yahoo enormously, and it's great that we're continuing our partnership.

10:01 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Convey my big congrats to your sales people GG :)
10:05 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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nutsandbolts:
Can you hear the affiliate site owners jumping from windows as we speak?

Hmm...why do you say that?

10:05 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I feel sorry for those people who have spent thousands on $299 a piece directory listings though. I could only be bothered buying one early last year (when Google slapped me)

Now - will Yahoo! go with Adwords Select GoogleGuy? ;)

10:07 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I recall Y! and Overture just did a three year deal a couple months back.
10:13 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This is good news for my sites, and I think a wise move from Yahoo. Inktomi have a long way to close the gap before they're really competitive.

When did Yahoo change how the results are displayed?

10:17 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Yes, it is sad about the money spent to be in Yahoo. We are in that boat too, although we have made no effort to have any of our own sites included in Yahoo since they went to the recurring annual fee.

I have to admit I do like the new Yahoo search results format with combined results. For those who rank well in Google, it is a sunny day.

And I think that signing a new deal with Google was a very smart move. Me be a happy Beachboy today. :)

10:20 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This should work beautifully, since Google is so good with those specific searches that aren't necessarily popular, but they're so targeted they convert beautifully for people.

In the new system, both Yahoo and Google results are mixed together under an entirely new "Web Matches" section.

Good for consumers to find their exact items and speed their searches, and good for online Moms and Pops. Some of those head right to the shopping cart they're so precisely targeted.

Very nice article:

[searchenginewatch.com...]

This is a particularly interesting observation:

Indeed, Google has become a synonym for web search to some people.

That's quite an accomplishment in branding in a few short years. People don't say they're buying tissues, they say they're buying Kleenex. Now they don't say go to a search engine, they say "Do a Google search."

10:23 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I keep trying to get all my eggs out of one basket, but Google keeps putting them back in to the Google basket.

All I need now is for MSN to go Google. Then I can just give up trying.

10:26 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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> I keep trying to get all my eggs out of one basket, but Google keeps putting them back in to the Google basket.

Well, more may happen. Inktomi tells me now that they are still in talks with Yahoo. Yahoo was also very strong on the whole "non-exclusive" thing with Google, so we could see further providers mixing in results.

10:27 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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If that happens, then INK's .27 cents stock may start to seem like a good idea.
10:33 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This may come to be known as D-Day II for many site owners that have come to depend on the keyword laden domain names and other Spam in YAHOO!.

Can't say I'm happy to lose lots of YAHOO! rankings, but this new search format is a huge upgrade now that it doesn't display all that affiliate and other junk the directory was becoming consumed with.

Maybe Ink could step in and provide some kind of more shopping or business services related search. Non exclusive is good, it keep the possibility open that other data sources besides Google will be available to the public.

10:38 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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<<Now they don't say go to a search engine, they say "Do a Google search.">>

Or say, "I Googled it," or "I Googled him," or....

10:38 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Black Wednesday?
10:40 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Frankly, I think Yahoo should issue refunds to people who submitted for express inclusion in the last three months or so -- what a joke! $300 to have your listing buried? If they think they're going to be able to renew that next year, you can expect to see thousand and thousands of temporarily abandoned domains without sites on them.

Generally speaking, this is horrible - even if you didn't like Yahoo SERP's at least they were different from Google... now everything is the same.

10:45 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This is bad. How could Yahoo, in good concience, take all those fees from all of those customers, knowing full well they would dilute the value of what was provided for said fee. IMO this is dishonest and a prime example of "bait and switch". I don't care what their agreement says....this is wrong. This ranks up there with the Looksmart move. I'd say it's worse b/c the scale of those affected (robbed) is far wider.....IMO

As far as who else they might use to supliment Google....INK and AV are the obvious choices. Both have trusted feed programs based on a CPC model. This means a revenue share opportunity. How long b/c Google offers a trusted feed CPC program?

This is great if you are fan of monopolies and you have good position in Google.

10:48 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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<<How could Yahoo, in good concience....>>

Well, perhaps no conscience was involved. ;)

10:52 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Danny Sullivan...hmm that name sounds familiar. Well, you guys have done a great job attracting some talent to this board. So is no one using searchengineforums (can I say that word here?) anymore? When did this site pop up btw and who's behind it? Fabulous work..
10:56 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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>>> Generally speaking, this is horrible - even if you didn't like Yahoo SERP's at least they were different from Google... now everything is the same.<<<

I could not agree more. Now we have to search MSN if we want different results. I'm pissed. I recently listed a very relevant site in Y! that had a very good position, but because Google has not updated it's crawl, what was #1 in Y! now does not even exist...and it won't until Ms. Google Bot updates her info.

Y! can forget about me renewing or paying for that matter, that $299 again unless my relevant sites are found as they once were. What's the point of paying. Get a good rank in Google and you've covered 75% of the internet.

10:56 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I just submited a site this morning. :(

Time for a chargeback :)

Anyway looking at the results I am in shock that Yahoo, has given up their directory. Now people have absolutely no reason use Yahoo. Well at least most of my sites will do very well with the new system. Now if you get banned by google it's all over.

One company controling the information on the web is not a good thing... No matter how well we do from it...

[edited by: Marcia at 11:34 pm (utc) on Oct. 9, 2002]

11:03 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Now we have to search MSN if we want different results

A certain irony about it really. Made me grin anyway. :)

[edited by: Marcia at 11:35 pm (utc) on Oct. 9, 2002]

11:06 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This is very simple math everyone. Yahoo wants to make money. I have been spending thousands with them since I discovered thats what it took to get good ranking in their engine. Now all the money I spent with them has turned to 0000000000000's. The only results I have in Yahoo now are the ones I have in Google.

Yahoo is Google with 4 overture spots on the top and ads on the top bottom and right. and more overture at the bottom.

Can anyone think of a single reason to give Yahoo a single dime any longer?

In 2 months when the rest of the world discovers that for your $299.00 you get 0000000000000000000000. They may change their tune and acutally give mankind a reason to give them money again.

Finally: Anyone here can think of 1 single reason to ever give Yahoo another dime?

11:18 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This was a simple business decision for Yahoo, what gives them more revenue, the few people that pay the $299 per year OR the millions of visitors that will continue to go to the site due to the good search results?

Visitors won't have to leave the site to do their searches elsewhere - so that means more people looking at ads, which equals more money.

11:21 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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the few people that pay the $299 per year

More like a few thousand a week ;)

nipear Sorry to hear about your bad timing - get that chargeback done today!

11:21 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Nobody in their right mind would give Yahoo a cent now, of course. Just get a ranking in Google, and you're a shoo-in over at Yahoo for free.

I hope Yahoo does begin using Inktomi listings as well as Google's...

11:22 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Humph. I'll bet they timed this announcement to coincide with PubConference. Give you all something to talk about while drinking mass quantities of British beer. :)
11:26 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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The thing is, that people paid for *consideration" for a listing in the Directory, with even inclusion to that not guaranteed. Yahoo didn't change their business model at all, they've not changed what they offer. They've only changed search, which isn't even mentioned as a remote promise.
11:27 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This is big news, all those work to get listed into Yahoo wasted! Will be interesting to see though if Yahoo decides to deal with Ink :)
11:28 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Why all the sobbing from the directory huddle? It would seem to me having your site show up in the Yahoo search (web search) listing would be just as good, or maybe better, than having it show up in the old directory, especially since the Yahoo directory listings get a page rank boost in Google which is powering the Yahoo search.

Have you checked your traffic stats in the few hours since the Yahoo combined search went live, and have they really taken a beating?

A lot of website promoters would pay $300 for a Yahoo directory listing just for the Google boost, irregardless of traffic results from the directory.

Excuse me if I'm speaking out of ignorance since I never saw fit to use the Yahoo Directory, but I have to ask what other bystanders like myself are probably wondering.

[edited by: mayor at 11:30 pm (utc) on Oct. 9, 2002]

11:28 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Oh, and There are DEFINITELY ways to improve your search relevency and still make your paying customers happy without having ALL GOOGLE RESULTS!

Its actually the stupidest thing I have ever seen a search engine do. You care about making all the searchers happy? Really?

Which will make you more happy then, go to google, see a few small ads and the same results, or go to Yahoo and see google with Ads every single place you look, top4, bottom2, right, banners .

Yahoo is now a desacrated with ads google. You think that helps their corporate image, stock value or visitors enjoyment? If they really cared about that, they would take down their ads, Write Google at the top of the page, and then their users would be truly happy.

Yahoo=Google with ads spammed all over it. When the rest of the world figures that out, they will begin to understand you only make money by being unique. You have to have something everyone else does not. They used to have human editors. Now they have Google (which everyone else has, and Google themselves!)

Google with ads everywhere...hmm...I'll just use google.

11:31 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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[help.yahoo.com...]

Note: Third-party search engine providers may include listings for which the third party has received payment to review and/or include the site within its database. (Please note: The third-party web sites listed within the Directory and third-party search results are not owned by Yahoo!.)

Gone from horrible to apocylpse. Wait, what am I complaing about other than the few grand I lost, I do great in Google too!

All hail the iron fist of Google.

11:32 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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At least nobody's compared this to the L$ fiasco. :)

lawman

11:35 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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The little red arrows pointing to sites in the Yahoo Directory may encourage more webmasters to pay for Yahoo listing (to get listed on the category page the arrow points to) which would mean mucho $$$ for Yahoo.

I like the new format.

[edited by: crobb305 at 11:57 pm (utc) on Oct. 9, 2002]

11:37 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This must be devastating to Inktomi ... now MSN has them by the gonads.
11:37 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Yeah, I'll pay $300 for the little arrow which takes you to my competitors sites! Oh and yeah does anyone even see my red arrow unless I am on the first page of Google? Ummmm no.

Click: [add.yahoo.com...]

Let them know what they've done wrong.

11:43 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Well for my 2 cents worth i think yahoo have realised that they're 10 percent stake could in 5 years be worth an awful lot of money compared to what it may be worth now, so protect Google's growth ! :)
11:44 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I suspect they'll figure out what they've done wrong when nobody renews their listings, or submits new. I was just gonna submit another site, but now I can't think of a single good reason to.
11:47 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Lawman, LS changed their business model completely, going from Directory to PPC. Yahoo never offered anything but a review for possible inclusion - in their Directory. That hasn't changed, you still get exactly what you pay for.
11:47 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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>> can't think of a single good reason to

Then think Page Rank.

11:48 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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You will still be a winner if the keywords trigger the Yahoo! directory. And if you are not the last listing in that directory. Most people will still click on the directory link. If not, well, good luck with the googlebot.
11:52 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I just sent them a compliment on the new format. Paying the $300 for the listing might mean higher page rank and may, in turn, lead to higher rankings to the first or second page. Not all searchers stop on the first page.

:)

11:53 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I may be a litle confused here but weren't Yahoo already using Google for search results? The main difference I see is that the directory results don't come up first when you do a search, but they are still there when you hit the directory button. So all the listings are there, they just don't come up first by default any more (which Yahoo never promised they would anyway). Is there something I'm missing?
11:54 pm on Oct 9, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Google has its own (ODP)directory, search results, PPC and news area. What does ANYONE need Yahoo! for?
12:02 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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"This was a simple business decision for Yahoo, what gives them more revenue, the few people that pay the $299 per year OR the millions of visitors that will continue to go to the site due to the good search results?
Visitors won't have to leave the site to do their searches elsewhere - so that means more people looking at ads, which equals more money. "

Not sure about that one. On Tuesday there was close to 200 new business listings accepted into Yahoo. Lemme see at $300 a pop lets call it $60 grand. I don't know how simple of a business decision that is..

12:06 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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This is internet searches monopoly.

Next step, ICANN-Google venture?

You may think it's good, 'cause Google is good.
And, well, you may also stop, why not, watching TV news, listening radios, reading newspapers.

Google is great.
We have Google, we have all.
We are Google.
- repeat 3 times with a cyborg voice -

cminblues

12:09 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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I just submited a site this morning.
Time for a chargeback

AAAHHH...finally, the most intelligent method I ever heard of for getting listed on Yahoo. Since their listings are so bad and never updated, just submit to them, use credit card, do a chargeback, do you really think the person at billing will remember to tell the directory guy to pull it out? No way, you're in you're in for good...

I love it!

PS The reason I have this attitude to yahoo is I once paid their expen$ive fee and didn't get in and the guy was really rude about it. Although I now understand that the site I submitted wasn't that user friendly when I submitted it, as a small non-profit site it's a lot of money to spend to not get in and then be treated rudely by the guy as he rejects you. (It wasn't spam site or anything bad, just poorly designed).

12:12 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Google has its own (ODP)directory

So when does Google replace ODP with Yahoo? I never thought that'd happen, now I'm not sure.

12:12 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Has anyone stopped to consider that this might only be the first half of the deal? Yahoo doesn't end up looking so stupid if Google replaces ODP category matches with Yahoo categories.
12:13 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Apparently Tom has considered it. :)
12:13 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Well the quality of the search results is way better - so it's a plus for the consumer, Google would have to repeat their poor quality update 20 times before the results were as bad as Yahoo's were.

Having said that - a monopoly is never a good thing - it's like we just got kicked in the stomach by the last update & now this is like a kick in the head while your down.

I can't imagine why Yahoo would do that - it won't improve Yahoo's number of visitors much, Yahoo is a brand name & people use it because they always have. What they will lose is the $299 directory fees. Given that they make over $1million a week on that little operation - they could see a huge drop in revenues.

Congrats to Google though - they deserve all the success that comes their way - gotta hand it to them.

Well in the last week I have had loads & loads of non-relevant visitors from google - seems like our site is good for any search except for searches that relate to what we are about - so I guess it's going to be mirrored by Yahoo searches now. Had a real good position in Yahoo - oh well. Of course it'll be great when we get our position in Google back from the abyss.

12:14 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Thought about it and I'm hoping that's the case. :) I loathe monopolies of any sort...
12:15 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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"AAHHH...finally, the most intelligent method I ever heard of for getting listed on Yahoo. Since their listings are so bad and never updated, just submit to them, use credit card, do a chargeback, do you really think the person at billing will remember to tell the directory guy to pull it out? No way, you're in you're in for good..."

Yeah...a webmaster friend submitted 2 sites to Yahoo in February and was denied a listing. He did a chargeback on the credit card and Yahoo has not challanged to this date. They probably don't even know which site the charge originated from.

12:15 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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>>> You will still be a winner if the keywords trigger the Yahoo! directory.<<<

NoCarrier - Not completely true. I have a fairly new site that was #1 in Y! for my search term...had all the search phrase in the title. Now it does not exist. When Google updates this month it will. So why do I need to pay? I don't.

12:15 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Three things. Firstly, Google pretty much accepts any site into their directory for the $299. It either has to be a repeat or something really, really bad for them to reject it. Secondly, web searches are lazy. Most will not bother clicking on the "Directory Sites" link when they come to search. They will go straight for the first results that are presented to them. So, in that respect, it is bad news for the people who have spent a fortune at Google getting good directory listing placements as they were displayed first with Old Yahoo!

Thirdly - I'm glad they went with Google - but I would of been equally pleased with Fast or even the new Wisenut index which is shaping up nicely. After all, it's important to have some real COMPETITION in any business.....

12:16 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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An interesting turn around for the books. It will be interesting to see how this affects the site logs. We had just managed to get one site into 10 pos 1st page (yahoo) for a one word term that would have resulted in 54,000,000 results in Google !

I wonder how this may affect Google, as now people do not need to go to Google they can check their emails through Yahoo and get a valid and accurate search from Yahoo now.

12:22 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Do you think that InktomiGuy and GoInkGo are amongst the 20% layoffs? That might account for their absence from the forums these days. :)

.

12:25 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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>Given that they make over $1million a week on that little operation

Is that correct? So, it is about 5% of last quarter revenues, not bad.

If they get the Google directory, that would be huge for them and they would definetely increase the number of people that pay $299.

12:32 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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crobb305 wow, I wish I had done that!

Google charges 299 for their directory? I'm confused...I thought they used dmoz.org?

12:33 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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It seems to me that some nervous nellies here are waaaay missing the point. That red arrow is huge. If you aren't in the red arrow list, you just ain't happening.

A search for my key term has millions of results... and there are only 50 sites on the Yahoo directory page. Fifty. How many people will click the red arrow to lead to "more sites: directly on this topic"? I don't know, but if you aren't there, you are making a major error. It does depend on the category of course, with smaller ones more valuable, but if you aren't on the first page of the results, you definitely should be in the directory.

It used to be that you could pay $299 to be displayed on a default page with pretty non-relevant results. Now for $299 you get to that irrelevant results page by clicking the Directory link in the upper right, but you also get a direct link from the red arrows next to whatever are the top search results on the default search, and that red arrow link is to the much more useful dir.yahoo.com page not the more gibberishy search.yahoo.com/search/dir page.

In general, this is a huge improvement across the board for those in the directory -- and obviously more so if the Yahoo directory takes ODPs place as the Google Directory. The only people hurt are those who are in the directory who happened to rank well on the search.yahoo.com/search/dir page.

The way I see it, I am always now one click away from people being able to see my listing, and that is awesome (partly because the Yahoo editors did okay with my description).

The only downside I see is there will be more !mysite.com listings to get at the top of the alphabetical lists.

12:36 am on Oct 10, 2002 (gmt 0)

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Google does use DMOZ. I think he was confusing Yahoo! with Google.
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