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Why has the Advertising/Affiliate section faded
A suggested answer
Michael Anthony




msg:3234313
 9:36 pm on Jan 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

Q: Why does the Advertising Sales & Affiliates Programs forum get so little posting these days?

A: Because anyone offering sound advice based on experience gets accused of self promotion and has all their posts deleted.

Q: But surely someone who knows what they are doing helping others through a free forum is a good thing?

A: I'd tend to agree, but you'll notice that most of the people that used to post helpful tips and advice have not posted here for ages

Q: Why is that?

A: I think that they found it a little disheartening to spend hours typing up helpful posts and see all their hard work deleted by the moderators

Q: So what is the point of this forum now?

A: It's OK if you want to find spam, or if you are bored and want to obsess about spyware or other people stealing your traffic

Q: But I want to learn about Advertising Sales & Affiliate Programs?

A: Sorry, we can't help. We're not allowed to say anything real.

No offnce, but WebmasterWorld moderators, if you are reading this, do me the courtesy of explaning your draconian logic on here, in public, so that I and others can understand exactly how it all works.

We've spent years helping people on here and used to find it a great place to come and share ideas - these days it's as dead as a duck. Seems like a real shame, don't we all agree?

 

tsinoy




msg:3234322
 9:49 pm on Jan 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

I still find something useful on this forum.. but mostly in the adwords/msn/ysm areas.. not the advertising sales and affiliate programs section..

its been a little dead.. lately.. I remember the days when rfung was updating us on a $100/day goal or $150/day goal threads.. those were the good times I learned a lot there.. and have used some of the strategies very well and made a little fortune... that was close to 2.5 years ago... oh well.. maybe the glory is over and the ideas are somewhere else..?

Brett_Tabke




msg:3234340
 10:01 pm on Jan 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

Interesting post - suspiciously naive (coming from you) our just suspicious - but interesting none-the-less. It is simply not possible to have the type of forum you are dreaming of. Look around the aff space and there are zero quality communities that are not suspect to be found anywhere. From paid-to-post, paid-to-moderate, and the flat out sponsored (aka: bought-and-paid-for-forums), most of the aff space is a marginal step above the email spam space [theregister.co.uk] and brushes shoulders with it in others. I don't believe it is possible to have an aff forum that isn't suspect/spammed that you can in anyway trust about specific products or services related to affiliate programs. Affiliate programs are generally setup as MLM/pyramid systems (and that is NOT a criticism of it - only commentary imho) designed to pass on the actual act of doing the front line selling to someone else. That frontline marketing generates spam in all it's forms from simple web spam, forum spam, word-of-mouth spam, to email spam. The only difference from five years ago to now, is that they have gotten quite good at it.

There has been no forum on WebmasterWorld, that has been allowed to push the envelope the way the aff/ad forum has been able. A quick look down your profile and I found numerous (at least 20) posts that needed to be deleted. Either self promotion or whisper campaigns by atleast 10 posters. We look the other way 90% of the time in there and the senior members do an awesome job of cleaning up the mess and self moderation (mucho appreciated)

If you can suggest a policy shift that can allow the types of posting you dream of, please do so. If not, then pause for a minute and consider that your own promotion activities could/can/and are, viewed as spam in it's own right by some. After that, take a hard look at the paid-to-post, paid-to-review, and paid-to-whisper services. How can you win in that environment? That line is a little fuzzy gray thing that is always a moving target.

Professional Forum Spammers:
[webmasterworld.com...]

All that said, we have pretty much decided to move the aff forum to the supporters side of the equation...

yanov




msg:3234344
 10:04 pm on Jan 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

I found this forum 3 years ago and was surfing it non-stop. But after I met Mr Anthony I no longer needed to scan through webmasterworld because ... let's say he had answers to A LOT of questions. Now he has even more ;)

Leosghost




msg:3234376
 10:26 pm on Jan 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

oh dear ..a "testimonial" ;-)

oddsod




msg:3234396
 11:08 pm on Jan 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

FWIW, I think the guy knows a fair bit that would benefit many of the webmasters here looking to make it with aff programs.

OK, another testimonial if you like.

But, I agree that there can't be any relaxing of rules in this corner of WW.

Marcia




msg:3234408
 11:25 pm on Jan 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

>>So what is the point of this forum now?

Dynamite posts in the forum Library teaching people "how to fish" for themselves, rather than people promoting their own fishing holes to send newbie fishermen to.

On another note, just one scenario:

Paid-for forum
An "award-winning" OPM and an "award-winning" merchant.
Affiliates send thousands of targeted clicks
No sales for 99% of them
Program continues to attract new affiliates because of "reputation" and exposure
Noobs join & continue to send even more multiple thousands of clicks
No sales for 99% of them
Why merchant continues? Because there's enough of a mark-up to turn a profit on the 1% who make sales. And for the branding and return traffic after return days have expired.

Why? because the affiliates with wasted traffic weren't taught how to fish and never learned that you can't go out in a rowboat on a pond and expect to catch 20 pound yellowtails.

Scenario 2:

Popular AM, new forum, new merchant - GREATEST in the space
6 months down the road, AM and merchant part ways
Same AM, new merchant, now this new one is the GREATEST in the space.

Scenario 3:

Newbie floats in and "outs" what's "wrong" with some merchant.
How do we know it isn't their competition deliberately giving them bad press?

Nothing beats learning the basics of how to fish, choosing your own boat, finding your own good fishing holes, and learning to bait your own hook.

Added:

Incidentally, there are still some people posting responses in that forum who I know for a fact know what they're talking about and give good advice. There always has been value and there still is. But if people want to be spoon-fed like babies instead of reading and thinking and learning principles they can apply for themselves, they're in the wrong place.

As far as telling which merchants and programs are money-makers goes, some people may be friends and share one-on-one (like my replacement for scenario #1 who converts on a site that isn't even finished). But for the most part, giving unknown competitors proprietary, valuable information is just plain dumb.

It's the old axiom - "Does Macy's tell Gimbels?"

[edited by: Marcia at 11:41 pm (utc) on Jan. 27, 2007]

pflyers




msg:3234409
 11:27 pm on Jan 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

About 2 years ago this was a great place to visit. great posts by M. Anthony, Mfishy and a few others. In fact I've made over 6 figures a year for the past two years following advice I received from these guys back then. These guys may irritate a few people because they have a knack of simply saying what's on their mind but I have to say these guys who were legends back then DO know what they are talking about. I rarely come here anymore, it's too bad as it used to be a great place to learn and meet others.

Marcia




msg:3234418
 11:46 pm on Jan 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

>>I rarely come here anymore, it's too bad as it used to be a great place to learn and meet others.

Except that now that you know how to make 6 figures you could return the kindness and help those who are new by giving the same kind of help you, yourself received. If people come, take and then leave without giving back, whose fault is that?

>>These guys may irritate a few people because they have a knack of simply saying what's on their mind

I'm no legend, but I've been irritating more than a few people around here for well over 6 years, but I'm still around and haven't been kicked out yet. It isn't irritation that's the issue.

[edited by: Marcia at 11:56 pm (utc) on Jan. 27, 2007]

TrustNo1




msg:3234421
 12:02 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

"Why has the Advertising/Affiliate section died?"

Basically it's been overmodded to death. It's that simple.

Richard Overvold




msg:3234444
 12:30 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Brett, I find your post a little off base when talking about showing affiliate marketers how to sell stuff, creating spammers. So not the case. Because when you show someone to do something the "right" way, you eliminate their "desperation" of turning to the dark art of spamming. If they're making money the moral way, then there is no need to spam. If you allowed people to post specifics, chances are, you'll cut down on the "cheat the system" posts. And creating a paid forum for the so called "secrets" is a joke. It's almost like you're trying to hide the secrets for the benefit of lining your own pockets. I'm sorry if I'm a bit too blunt with my post, but that's how I see it in my eyes. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

>>>So what is the point of this forum now?
>>>Dynamite posts in the forum Library teaching people "how to fish" for themselves, rather than people promoting their own fishing holes to send newbie fishermen to.
That's because the one's showing "how to fish" are scared they will canibalize their biznesses. And personally, if the market they are in is "really good", then there is no need to hide it from others.

>>>Why? because the affiliates with wasted traffic weren't taught how to fish and never learned that you can't go out in a rowboat on a pond and expect to catch 20 pound yellowtails.
Show them "where" to fish, and they'll eat faster, and forever.

Bottom line is, I visit a forum that was started by Michael, and him and I built that forum up over the course of a few months, and everything snowballed. And you know what? I've been making on the higher side of 6 figures a year for a while now, and no matter how many people I give advice to, I still can acheive those numbers. That's what I think everyone is scared of, posting their secrets, losing their business, but guess what? Your competition will catch up with you eventually. So if everyone wants to keep those closely guarded secrets private, then guess what? There's no point to this forum. Everyone's interested in details, to hell with beating around the bush, which is what most people here do, and still get their posts deleted. Go figure. Reason I don't spend as much time here is because our forum gives me a HUGE useful amount of information for free, and I don't have to worry about my posts being deleted for releasing "specifics".

[edited by: Richard_Overvold at 12:31 am (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]

Leosghost




msg:3234451
 12:40 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

those who can ..do

those who cant ..ask

some who can ..give advice with no ulterior motive except help ..

and others ask ..and give advice .. ( and sometimes play tag team with their associates/friends to do both in the one thread ) and all just to direct traffic to their aff schools ..via their profiles ..

Brett made it about as clear as it could be said ..by an admin / owner ..I hope I just made it about as clear as it could be said ..by a member ( and I didnt talk about my car once in order to do it ) ..discussing techniques is one thing ..discussing techniques for thinly disguised recruiting to external pay for instruction sites has to be watched for ..and is ..and not just by admins and mods ..

Leosghost




msg:3234454
 12:52 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Reason I don't spend as much time here is because our forum gives me a HUGE useful amount of information for free, and I don't have to worry about my posts being deleted for releasing "specifics".

but presumably you all come here anyway to start or "run" threads because your supply of marks..( whoops! ..old carnie term there ) is not as great as you would wish and there arent enough of them joining your fora to eventually be steered to your "pay to join our affschool and get our secrets areas too" ..which makes comments about the supporters area here a real giggle fit.:-)

surprised you arent all too busy counting your millions and sailing your yachts to post here ..plus moving faster than piranhas to post on this thread as you have done makes one notice the similarity in your methods and those of small blue amazonian fish ..thats not too slick technique that ..tsk tsk ..you done bent the needle on my "motive meter" there ..

[edited by: Leosghost at 12:55 am (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]

Marcia




msg:3234455
 12:53 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

<-- Winking at Leosghost!

>>Bottom line is, I visit a forum that was started by Michael, and him and I built that forum up over the course of a few months, and everything snowballed.

Point well made. Point VERY well made, in fact. Now scroll up and read this thread all over again, and see if you can't find the incongruencies. :P

ROFL and adding:

i snot

Great typo, m'love. Reminds me of an old childhood poem.

What?
Snot: 10 cents a whole lot.

[edited by: Marcia at 12:56 am (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]

yanov




msg:3234465
 1:03 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

sorry didn't want my post to look like a testimonial!

"Nothing beats learning the basics of how to fish, choosing your own boat, finding your own good fishing holes, and learning to bait your own hook."
yeah ... may be you are right ... but why don't we speed up the process and may be lower the risk of failure.
We help them prosper ... they help us with volumes to get better deals and to eliminate this 30% networks get.
isn't that a win-win situation?

Leosghost, I believe Michael stated clearly he want some kind of permission not just directly spamming.

Richard Overvold




msg:3234466
 1:11 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

>>>Point well made. Point VERY well made, in fact. Now scroll up and read this thread all over again, and see if you can't find the incongruencies. :P

At no time did I say that I wanted anyone to come over to my forum. I want things to loosen up over here. And I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who wants this.

>>>but presumably you all come here anyway to start or "run" threads because your supply of marks..( whoops! ..old carnie term there ) is not as great as you would wish and there arent enough of them joining your fora to eventually be steered to your "pay to join our affschool and get our secrets areas too" ..which makes comments about the supporters area here a real giggle fit.:-)

Giggle all you want, but like I just responded to Marcia, I don't care if anyone visits the forum that we made. And not to mention, our forum is free. Not paid, dunno where you thought our forum was a paid one. The lack of specific information this forum provides now is ridiculous. Everyone is scared to lose their business to talk. And the mods and admins are too scared they'll create spammers if they allow it. So you tell me, what's the point of having a dead forum about a really interesting topic?

[edited by: Richard_Overvold at 1:17 am (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]

Marcia




msg:3234469
 1:19 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

but why don't we speed up the process and may be lower the risk of failure.
Who is this "we" who holds the magic key to miracle shortcuts to success?

We help them prosper ... they help us with volumes to get better deals and to eliminate this 30% networks get.
isn't that a win-win situation?

Quite frankly, no it doesn't. It sounds more like "we" is out fishing for pulling in a fleet of second-tier pigeons.

Leosghost




msg:3234483
 1:48 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Leosghost, I believe Michael stated clearly he want some kind of permission not just directly spamming.

I cant speak for the management ..but I presume had there been fewer attempts at indirectly spamming and some as near to directly as makes no difference ..that when shak left to go swim in the yangtze ..there might have been talk ..after all WebmasterWorld was light a mod in that area for awhile ..

but ..( thankfully ) the motive flags were already up ( I'm not the only one with a motive meter ..even works down 'ere under me bridge ) ..so the newbie fish were spared being taught to swim by known piscivores ..

So you tell me, what's the point of having a dead forum about a really interesting topic?

reports of it's death are somewhat premature ..and the fact that all those singing the dirge are part of the same "school" just broke another needle on my motive meter ..gonna have to use the one from my BS meter whilst I fix it ..

I find the spectacle of the fish eaters asking for special permits and "if we put more bait in the pond everyone would benefit ..trust us on this" reaaly is amusing ..It's only dead waters for what you want to be able to do fish for in it ..naive unprotected newbies with credit cards ..it's doing just fine at helping newbies learn how to avoid being eaten by even bigger fish wearing their bright shiny altruistic motives near their teeth ( like anglerfish ) ..

the aff forum isnt there so anyone can farm it ..

if it's really being altrusitic that rows your boat ..Billy G is still looking for signed checks for the foundation ..or you could join all your money togethr and become venture capitalists funding affilate marketing advisory companies ..

do you get the feeling no one is buying or being fooled?

@ Marcia ..thats just the typos that get by my checking ..you should see them before I hit submit ..

but it's dark under me bridge ere ..and hard to see the keys ..and they're in french ..and typing isnt what us mythical nordic under bridge dwellers do best ..

Leosghost




msg:3234494
 1:56 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

We help them prosper ... they help us with volumes to get better deals and to eliminate this 30% networks get.
isn't that a win-win situation?

gwaaan ..who talks like that ..really ;-)

you musta sold time share before you were a naff

whoops nother typo ..think i'll leave it in

badone




msg:3234495
 1:57 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

I have to agree with Michael and Richard on this one, after all I found Mike through the affiliate forum here at webmaster world and made quite a bit of money through that affiliation and what's wrong with that?

I too fondly remember the days of Rfung and his $100/day threads. If it wasn't for posts like that, and some of Mikes, and some from many other valuable members of the WebmasterWorld community I would not have taken that first crucial step. It was during this "hayday" of the affiliate forum that I first took interest in it because, lets face it, it was interesting. If Mike has generated some interest in his school and recruited a few more affiliates lets not begrudge him that. Let's not lose sight of the fact that people that participate in the Aff forum and to a lesser extent WebmasterWorld in general are interested in making money. You can't create a forum like that in this day and age and expect professionals to come there and contribute without expecting a little bit of publicity/notoriety in return. Michael and others in his league represent a valuable part of the WebmasterWorld fraternity IMHO and if we over moderate these posters we run the risk of denying future memebers the opportunities that many of us have benefitted from.

If I had not found Mike's website/school I would not be as financially boyant as I am now (not rich yet ;-) ) and, at least for me, money was the reason i looked at the advertising and affiliate forum in the first place.

My 2c,
Brad

Richard Overvold




msg:3234496
 2:00 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Leosghost,

Your motive meter is speculative. Which is fine, you're entitled to your own opinion. But one thing you can't argue is that our forum operates in the manner that we're trying to talk Brett and the mods into here, and you know what? Everyone in friendly. Everyone gets detailed information. And most of all, they all pretty much make money at some level or another. And we all share that with each other. We're trying to bring that here, where somewhere along the line, it faded.

badone




msg:3234497
 2:00 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Leosghost: I don't think any purpose is served through name calling... it merely reduces the credibility of your opinion. This is a rational discussion, not a heated argument. Lets not turn this into some "flamefest".

Richard Overvold




msg:3234499
 2:06 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)


gwaaan ..who talks like that ..really ;-)

you musta sold time share before you were a naff

whoops nother typo ..think i'll leave it in

Hey, to your responce to his, why would you knock a good idea? At what point would you make fun of someone who has the idea of eliminating an affiliate network that skims 30% off the top, when you can drop them, increase your commission 20% over what they were giving affiliates in the network, and you save them money, and gain money yourself? It's an outstanding idea, and you know that.

Marcia




msg:3234505
 2:19 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

>>I don't care if anyone visits the forum that we made.

So why in the world do you care if anyone visits WebmasterWorld? Don't think for one single minute that anyone has any fear of any two-bit forum poachers stealing away the membership. It's the act of watching them try to pull their time-worn, transparent tactics that's offensive, if not comical.

WebmasterWorld is UNIQUE, in case you haven't moved past self-inflicted tunnel vision, and part of the USP is that there's been an integrity of maintaining an "educational and informative" environment, instead of people having to look over their shoulders to see if anyone's got their own agenda they're pursuing to make merchandise of innocents who don't know enough yet to be aware that the internet is like swimming in shark-filled waters.

>>And not to mention, our forum is free.

Nobody said it wasn't. So are these, in case you haven't noticed.

>>Not paid, dunno where you thought our forum was a paid one

Didn't, dunno where you got that idea. And FYI, WebmasterWorld is FREE and there is no paid forum. There's a forum set aside for folks who are supporters of the site because of their appreciation for the value freely given and received from thousands of members.

Don't know what all the groupies hope to accomplish by crawling out of the woodwork chanting the mantra, but what you WON'T find here ever are people #*$!ing to recruit a second-tier for themselves or peddling Clickbank e-books, either their own or those for whom they're affiliates.

And we like it that way.

Marcia




msg:3234508
 2:22 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Hey, to your responce to his, why would you knock a good idea? At what point would you make fun of someone who has the idea of eliminating an affiliate network that skims 30% off the top, when you can drop them, increase your commission 20% over what they were giving affiliates in the network, and you save them money, and gain money yourself? It's an outstanding idea, and you know that.

Save the sales pitch for a more receptive crowd, would be my suggestion.

And as a point of interest, many indies and a lot of CPA Networks often have higher payouts than the major networks (for the same programs) - and nobody needs an e-bok or a guru to tell them that.

badone




msg:3234511
 2:32 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Sureley there is more value and therefore the forum is of greater value to teh users if the information provided is of a specific nature? What value is there in making a post along the lines of "somewhere out on the inteenet there is a place where some guy shows some people how to make money.... use the force Luke..... seek and ye shall find......"?

There has to be a balance between shameless self-promotion and providing people with valuable information, specifics no less, that may, or may not, be related to your personal business activities.

Sureley people know their own niches the best and that's where the most valuable specific information is going to come from.

As for moving the forum into the subscribers area... that would be perceived by many as forcing people to pay for the information and I'm sure be referred to in the wider community as a "paid forum".

Cheers,
Brad

Leosghost




msg:3234523
 2:49 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

I have absolutely nothing against affs ..nor against specialist aff fora away from here ..

but the question remains ..if your techniques and advice were so succesfull you would not have the time to be running aff fora nor advising others on the subject ..

my initial comments regarding those who can do ..and those who cant teach is old but valid ..

business clubs ..be they aff or otherwise make me very very supicious ..I go back far enough to have been a charter member ( co founder ) of a very prestigious Lions club ..I quit when I saw that it was being used to recruit members who wished to "get on " in their business community ..and then was bing used to get them to part with money in upgraded insurance ..business deals between members etc ..it was not that there was a confict of interests ..it was that too many members were sailing under false colours ..

there is a commercial area in these fora ..possibly Brett might be amenable to you "recruiting" there?

I dont know ..but that would be at least dealing with the recrutment to your organisation more ethically than the events to which Brett alluded and which I also have been a party to and have witnessed ..his link to the pro spammer thread was IMO very apt ..

as to "flamefest" ;-) ..no ..but when someone takes me for a fool it is naive to expect no reaction ..

this is not a discussion ..Brett made his point clear in the second post ..I am somewhat surprised that he left the thread open ( maybe he did not want to be accused of censorship if he locked it ) ..but til now all the arguments of those who are in favour of relaxing the owners policy towards the aff forum are still saying ..relax it and we will advise and discuss ..and it is only natural that we then may get some reward via recruitment ..

that could be applied to any forum at WebmasterWorld ..reps from adobe posting openly in the graphics forum etc ..sure they would be helping ..but their recommendations on techniques would be tainted by their desire to push their or their friends products ..

so such is not allowed ..and is blocked when such things are seen ..( not that adobe would need to spam here to boost revenue or gain users ) ..you can help prospective affs in your own fora ..on your own conditions and terms ..

if those who are searching for aff marketing advice wind up here and not at your fora ..that is because this site ranks higher than yours does ..maybe even in that subject ..

which would suggest to me you would be better employed reading about SEO and SEM here ..;-)

than trying to steer the direction of the aff forum here

as someone who was involved in marketing in the days when computors all had punch cards and we all wore flares ..I have to say that your methods of marketing yourselves and your expertise in these WebmasterWorld fora are very clumsy and unsubtle ..

and smack of desperation and MLM recruitment tactics ..like herbal life ..in spite of your protests

badone




msg:3234531
 3:04 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

"reps from adobe posting openly in the graphics forum etc ..sure they would be helping ..but their recommendations on techniques would be tainted by their desire to push their or their friends products .. "

So are you saying that these people who are experts n their field should not post? Or that they should take the additional time required to self-moderate? I don't think that's going to happen......

This borders on a fifth ammendment argument doesn't it?

TrustNo1




msg:3234544
 3:25 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

"It is simply not possible to have the type of forum you are dreaming of. Look around the aff space and there are zero quality communities that are not suspect to be found anywhere."

Sure there is, there's <snip>b the biggest affiliate marketing forum on the internet. All the Affiliate Summit Pinnacle Award winners post there. Affiliates, affiliate managers, merchants, networks etc.

"Affiliate programs are generally setup as MLM/pyramid systems designed to pass on the actual act of doing the front line selling to someone else."

Shows a lack of knowledge of affliate marketing.

There are places like digital point where the affiliate section is just worthless because there is so much spam. Here it's bad in the sense because it's overmodded. You have 3 mods to watch over on average about 2 new threads a day. Open it up, I'm sure they can handle it. Good mods have an eye for what is spam and what isn't. Have some faith in them.

[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 4:33 pm (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]
[edit reason] no names please - that's the point of the thread [/edit]

badone




msg:3234546
 3:31 am on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Exactly, but don't over-moderate, there has to be some common sense involved, some balance.

You have to look at the context and know the field, a moderator of the advertising and affiliate forum should be selected because they know the advertising and affiliate field, not just because they stuck their hand up.

Some bureaucratic rubber stamping of anything related to self as being shameless self promotion for the purposes of profiting from unsuspecting noobs just won't cut it in my opinion.

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