austtr, okay, but then how would you recognize a full-blown bona fide Penguin recovery? What would it look like? I mean, no one's going to recover all their positions exactly as they were because (a) it's been so long between Penguin updates that niches have changed and (b) Google siphoned off a bunch of niches before Penguin and a few more after for those links at the top. So given you can't expect the traditional "All my keyphrases came back to virtually exactly where they were before!" recovery, what is it you would recognize as a Penguin recovery?