BeeDeeDubbleU - Great post. I agree with your logic, but Brett and others always fall about laughing when people mention oop. I think some people think, if a site is over optimised then it is not optimised, therefore its a silly discussion. This is to miss the point of what we are talking about. You have explained it well, the evidence suggests that when a webmaster gets used to optimising pages, they write unnaturally and this can get picked up. The example site in this thread is pr7 which overrides a lot of oop filters and I think words get ignored rather than penalised so other factors can still place a very optimised page near the top.