skymanhonor - 3:16 pm on May 24, 2004 (gmt 0)

My experience is that the only good way to get your site to come up for sure is to get good incoming links. I play with the onsite stuff, but we all know that our new sites don't come into play until we get those links.

If you take google's perspective, a site that has no incoming links can't be too good, no matter how it is SEOed.

I have seen evidence of what was said about how when you get past a certain page rank that SEO work pays off more. It is like you have built some credibility with them and now they will trust what you say is what.