bill
msg:4048162 | 8:25 am on Dec 23, 2009 (gmt 0) |
I haven't kept up. Will these changes make Opera a more attractive browser for developers?
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JAB Creations
msg:4048336 | 3:18 pm on Dec 23, 2009 (gmt 0) |
Yes, Safari 3.0+ and Firefox 1.5+ have respectable CSS3 support too. The border-radius property has an obvious immediate effect by removing the need for presentational divisible elements and forcing the browser to download actual graphics. Multiple background-image support per element also has this same effect and it'll make graphic heavy sites not require a mesh of (X)HTML to add background-images, positioning, etc. The box-shadow property also reduces (X)HTML meshing and negates further need to force the browser to download purely layout based graphics. So it will be possible to do much more with basic (X)HTML code. In regards to transforms they basically negate the need for DHTML, subjectively either entirely or at least partially. With a few dozen characters you can animate (X)HTML elements moving them, resizing them, changing their colors, etc where as with DHTML you'd need a few kilobytes to achieve this if you wrote it on your own or a JavaScript framework. It's just all all-round awesome release because it really goes a long way towards making our work so much simpler while also giving us more options and of course time. - John
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Fotiman
msg:4048442 | 5:20 pm on Dec 23, 2009 (gmt 0) |
But from a "developer" point of view, are there any tools included that will make it more attractive? For example, Firefox has Firebug... anything similar in Opera?
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RonPK
msg:4048450 | 5:31 pm on Dec 23, 2009 (gmt 0) |
Opera comes with a tool called Dragonfly. It's included in 10.10, probably in earlier versions too.
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JAB Creations
msg:4048462 | 5:51 pm on Dec 23, 2009 (gmt 0) |
Personally I prefer Chris Pederick's Web Developer Toolbar for Firefox over Firebug though I have tinkered with YSlow and Google's Page Speed that work with Firebug however Opera has Dragonfly [opera.com] which shares similarities with Firebug. Opera's JavaScript debugger has one thing none of the other browsers have, at least from what I've seen; traceback! All my JavaScript is function based and there are lots of functions that refer to other functions. However it would be ridiculous to setup a parameter with each function and pass along the calling function's name to figure out that function b was executed by function k and to check the parameters that function k is sending to function b. - John
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Fotiman
msg:4048588 | 8:54 pm on Dec 23, 2009 (gmt 0) |
I assume based on your description that "traceback" is the call stack. This information is available in Firebug:
Stack traces unstacked When the debugger is paused, Firebug shows you the call stack, which is the set of nested function calls that are currently running and waiting to return. The call stack is represented as a compact strip of buttons in the toolbar, each with the name of a function on the stack. You can click any button to jump to the line where that function is paused, and look at the local variables inside that function.
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Source: [getfirebug.com...]
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JAB Creations
msg:4048623 | 9:29 pm on Dec 23, 2009 (gmt 0) |
A little overcomplicated though cool. I've noticed that each of the browsers catch some things that they others don't. Firefox and Opera will remain my primary browsers for testing my work. - John
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J_RaD
msg:4048939 | 3:12 pm on Dec 24, 2009 (gmt 0) |
I like that they package unite with it now.
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ergophobe
msg:4048994 | 6:04 pm on Dec 24, 2009 (gmt 0) |
Just to throw this out - I've been using .htc files included in CSS to get rounded corners in IE. Include them only in conditional comments so only IE has to load them. Works fine. Opera was the only browser that I tested (IE8, FF, Safari, Opera, Chrome) that still had square boxes. Assuming the Opera implementation is good, Chrome will now be the worst since it gives the most jaggy corners. But it works. So unless you want super-clean, anti-aliased corners, you can at this point quit using corner images.
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Brett_Tabke
msg:4049129 | 4:16 am on Dec 25, 2009 (gmt 0) |
ya, dragon fly is built right in to the browser. Just go Window-Devleoper Tools and it is at the bottom of the screen. Dom Trace backs
Scripts
Network (headers/status/load times)
error console You can detach it and run it in a stand alone window to watch load items... Pretty nifty. (don't know enough about firebug to make a case-by-case comparison). The thing I do like about opera is that everything is built in - you don't have to go find addons and constantly update those addons. The other thing is that, I still feel opera is significantly faster than any other browser I have tried.
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outrun
msg:4049158 | 5:40 am on Dec 25, 2009 (gmt 0) |
| The other thing is that, I still feel opera is significantly faster than any other browser I have tried. |
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This build is much faster, and its trumping all the benchmarks at the moment. And it definitely feels much faster then the previous version of opera.
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JAB Creations
msg:4050017 | 10:27 pm on Dec 27, 2009 (gmt 0) |
It's just the initial alpha release too. While it did crash a few times I spent with it on the day of it's release it wasn't horrible and obviously we can expect Opera to make it more stable. I was really surprised they ended up releasing Presto 2.5 with this release as they had announced on a blog entry that work was finishing up on Presto 2.4 and they were beginning work on Presto 2.5. I like the fadeout option when a JavaScript prompt appears too. - John
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KenB
msg:4050021 | 10:38 pm on Dec 27, 2009 (gmt 0) |
I primarily use Firefox, but did recently discover Opera's Dragonfly and I really like it. Dragonfly and Firebug have a lot of functional overlap, BUT Opera/Dragonfly are MUCH faster. I find Firebug severely slows down page loading, which doesn't help when trying to find ways to speed up page download/rendering in general. When doing speed tests, the testing tools can't be having a major impact on page loading speeds compared to the load time of given pages when the testing tools aren't being used. I'm probably not going to switch from Firefox to Opera, but I was impressed in general with Opera and how fast it loads pages. My observations are that it is the fastest of the browsers I test against on WinXP.
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Brett_Tabke
msg:4050340 | 4:25 pm on Dec 28, 2009 (gmt 0) |
Interesting, Opera 10.50 blows down all competitors in speed tests:
[service.futuremark.com...]
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JAB Creations
msg:4050560 | 10:17 pm on Dec 28, 2009 (gmt 0) |
Firefox(v3.6b5) Scored:
3408 Points Opera(v10.50) Scored:
3470 Points Chrome(v4.0.249.43) Scored:
3885 Points Benchmarks are really subjective though. Chrome pulled ahead on this benchmark though performs no better then IE on the benchmark I created last week which is strange while Opera moved up to a close to second third place (behind Firefox and then Konqueror). It's going to get pretty sweet when GPU acceleration becomes widespread! :) - John
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Fotiman
msg:4050900 | 5:41 pm on Dec 29, 2009 (gmt 0) |
@Jab,
I see different results from the ones you listed:
Opera 10.50: 6550
Chrome 4.0.249.43: 4382
*Chrome 3.0.195.38: 3798
Firefox 3.6b5: 3408 * = current release version of Chrome Note sure why the discrepancy from your numbers.
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JAB Creations
msg:4051128 | 2:00 am on Dec 30, 2009 (gmt 0) |
Opera had a lot less open and my main profile for Firefox has a couple dozen extensions so I don't know why Opera would be running slower in comparison with your results. I recently discovered how to fetch an array of all supported DOM properties [webmasterworld.com] so here is the official DOM property difference between Opera 10.1 and 10.5 (so far with the initial build)... Removed
Added
OTabSize
OTransform
OTransition
OTransitionDelay
OTransitionDuration
OTransitionProperty
OTransitionTimingFunction
backgroundClip
backgroundOrigin
backgroundSize
borderBottomLeftRadius
borderBottomRightRadius
borderImage
borderRadius
borderTopLeftRadius
borderTopRightRadius
boxShadow
bufferedRendering
wordWrap |
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- John
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mcneely
msg:4067864 | 5:17 am on Jan 26, 2010 (gmt 0) |
@Brett_Tabke | Pretty nifty. (don't know enough about firebug to make a case-by-case comparison). The thing I do like about opera is that everything is built in - you don't have to go find addons and constantly update those addons. The other thing is that, I still feel opera is significantly faster than any other browser I have tried. |
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I too like the fact that I don't have to go chasing about after addons.
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StoutFiles
msg:4090086 | 4:51 pm on Mar 2, 2010 (gmt 0) |
| This new decade we'll see web designers doing web design with web design, not with meshed graphic design and is going to be totally awesome. |
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We'll see it when IE catches up and people stop using older browsers. Until then most of us will want our site(s) to work for everyone. Opera can have the greatest of everything, but if my visitors aren't using it then it doesn't really matter.
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