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Bing Search Engine News Forum

    
Where the heck have I been.?
bingdude




msg:4381862
 11:07 pm on Oct 31, 2011 (gmt 0)

First off, no, I haven't disappeared...though I can easily see how it looks that way.

For my absence, I apologize folks. I am but one person and with only so much time available.

The last month+ has seen me running surveys, prepping reports and guiding future investments in our tools. Plus, in the last month I've traveled to 4 conferences/events in 3 cities, and planned trips to 3 more events in three more cities...

Between all that, writing blog posts, recording videos and the rest of the usual work I need to get covered, time remained in short supply.

I am hoping to have more time in the forum in the coming weeks gang, so please bear with me.

duane

 

Web_speed




msg:4381873
 11:48 pm on Oct 31, 2011 (gmt 0)

Hi duane,

Great to see you back!

Is Bing ever going to offer webmasters some incentives to promoting the Bing brand on their websites (just like google does, and so successfully so, if i may add).

I would love to replace that "other search engine" custom search boxes on my pages and start to promote Bing search to my users.

Two problems though:
1) Bing is two slow to index pages and when it does, only a small fraction of them.... so mark off custom Bing website search for me. Crawling speed and depth improvements urgently needed.

2) I have absolutely no monetary incentive as a webmaster to promote the bing brand and unfortunately like many other busy webmasters, we have bills to pay.

When will Bing start to seriously address these issues? Because once you guys truly do, only the sky is the limit. You have no idea how many webmasters out there are waiting for that day.

Beating that other octopus that is currently wracking havoc on the web is only a matter of providing some incentive to webmasters. Very simple really. It amazes me to even think how simple it would be for you guys to tip the scales.... FAST!

You are already half way there with greatly improved search quality and speed, and for this you already have my highest respect!.... when will WE webmasters truly see the rest.

Honset questions from an honest webmaster.

Please help us help you!

mack




msg:4392279
 12:46 am on Nov 30, 2011 (gmt 0)

Thanks for dropping by!

Mack.

John_Galt




msg:4392805
 4:39 am on Dec 1, 2011 (gmt 0)

"When will Bing start to seriously address these issues? Because once you guys truly do, only the sky is the limit. You have no idea how many webmasters out there are waiting for that day.

Beating that other octopus that is currently wracking havoc on the web is only a matter of providing some incentive to webmasters. Very simple really. It amazes me to even think how simple it would be for you guys to tip the scales.... FAST!"

Bingo.

nomis5




msg:4394151
 8:34 pm on Dec 4, 2011 (gmt 0)

Where are you now Bingdude?

bingdude




msg:4394582
 11:59 pm on Dec 5, 2011 (gmt 0)

Let's see if I can do this justice...

Two problems though:
1) Bing is two slow to index pages and when it does, only a small fraction of them.... so mark off custom Bing website search for me. Crawling speed and depth improvements urgently needed.


Hearing this one; the team is constantly working to improve this. Given the scale we reach, there is a balancing act - move to quickly on crawling and the system bogs down processing the relevant content. Speeding up parsing may seem as simple as adding more servers, but that costs money. A LOT of money. Bing is a stand-alone business essentially, so must manage these costs on it's own. Its not as simple as simply ordering a few more semi's with more racks of servers and dialing all knobs to 11. ;)

Bottom line, one webmaster to another, though, is I and the team here hear what you are saying, its an important item and gets ongoing attention.

2) I have absolutely no monetary incentive as a webmaster to promote the bing brand and unfortunately like many other busy webmasters, we have bills to pay.

When will Bing start to seriously address these issues? Because once you guys truly do, only the sky is the limit. You have no idea how many webmasters out there are waiting for that day.


Obviously we're not blind to where we can add more value for webmasters. It'd be great to roll out a contextual ad program, or an affiliate program to help website's monetize. The biggest trouble spot for us again, is finding the balancing point. I'm going to make a statement here that may offend some younger viewers, so be warned: Only a relatively small percentage of webmasters use contentual ad programs for revenue.

I know, I blaspheme. I'll turn in my webmaster union card at the door after the next meeting, but bear with me here...

For us to roll out any kind of program requires that we can project a realistic ROI. The real kink here is that the overall numbers of websites using these services v. the entirety of those websites online, is small. It's not just "having the system" that'll make it all work. Certainly that's the first step, but planning requires we look at ALL steps. What if we built it and only a small percentage of websites out there ever used it?

Now, that's not to say we won't look at it (heck, its all I actually dream about myself at night) in the future, but folks need to remember that building such systesm is incredibly complex and costly. Not something to be launched into lightly.

Want to help ensure we end up launching a contextual ad program? Make sure you use adCenter. One can't be successful without the other. ;)

Beating that other octopus that is currently wracking havoc on the web is only a matter of providing some incentive to webmasters. Very simple really. It amazes me to even think how simple it would be for you guys to tip the scales.... FAST!


Every new website that opens a new Big webmaster account with get an autographed two-slice toaster with my picture on the side! Incentive galore!

Seriously, though, we're trying. It takes time to build new tools. We've got to start by asking you want you want - I do this through our surveys and at shows directly, as well as here, in our fourms and on our own blog. Next we sort the data. Then comes review and prioritization on my team's end. Next up, prioritization against all the rest of the dev work the team here (Bing Engineering) is planning for. Again we stack-rank, then see the cut line. Justifications follow all that, with the greenlit projects getting the go-ahead.

After that, we work in 6 month sprints, so getting the actual tools built and live can take anywhere from a few weeks to almost a year. We haven't even factored in dependancies on other systems around the Bing ecosystem, because it's not all one big black box as folks think. Nope, inside it's all very discretely divided into various areas, each with their own mandate to complete a section of work, and when your tool "needs" data from elsewhere, you have to depend on them. This often means you're tied to their timeline of work, too.

You are already half way there with greatly improved search quality and speed, and for this you already have my highest respect!.... when will WE webmasters truly see the rest.


Thanks for the kudos! Always nice to hear from folks that they are seeing a difference. As for webmasters seeing the rest, I wish it were that simple. Everything we do is incremental, and, as noted above, its not as if all of Bing Engineering is dedicated to solving just the issues for Webmasters. That said, we do have a dedicated (small) team and they are comprised of people who have their own websites and understand things from a Webmaster's POV. My team runs point on gathering feedback from the field and we work with them to get the tool built and expanded.

You want analytics? You want contextual ads? You want a keyword research tool? All heard loud and clear. But these are also big-ticket items, which take longer to sort through, justify and fund than most folks realize. I want them, too. Which is why they never leave my short list of recommendations!

:)

tangor




msg:4394598
 1:02 am on Dec 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Thanks for the update and straight talk bingdude! I've been through much of the same "drag time", though in a different industry, and know how difficult it is to get all the ducks in a row. Also aware you've got many other things on your plate than chatting here, so thank you for finding the time. That said, we'd really love to hear from you on a monthly (at least) basis if that's possible.

micklearn




msg:4394631
 4:30 am on Dec 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Only a relatively small percentage of webmasters use contextual ad programs for revenue.


Glad to see you return here, bingdude. I am somewhat suprised about your comment that I quoted above, though.

I think that 90 percent of the SERP's that I come across, for almost all of the searches that I do, show sites that use contextual ad programs, no matter what search engine I use. Wikipedia makes up the other 10 percent.

Can you shed some light on what I quoted from your post?

(For purpose of clarity, when I say contextual ads, I mean AdSense or AdSense-like ads, not links within a sentence/paragraph of text.)

tangor




msg:4394632
 4:37 am on Dec 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

I might offer a reply in that regard... most of the web is bears no resemblance to the webmasters here... We're looking for different results. :)

bingdude




msg:4394883
 7:25 pm on Dec 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

I might offer a reply in that regard... most of the web is bears no resemblance to the webmasters here... We're looking for different results. :)


Bingo.

If you examine the web in it's entirety, you'll see its not the way we webmasters tend to view it. There are just so many websites out there which simply don't use the services - and in many case, have no advertising at all.

If you look across all of the domains online - which we must - the numbers are low. Given the numbers are internally developed stats, I cannot get into details on them.

This is not meant to deminish the value of such programs, however, just meant to help set the tone for the conversations around them.

The main point folks need to understand from that is that paid search and contextual programs go hand-in-hand. Paid search can lead, but contextual struggles to exist without it, essentially.

If we narrow the ocnversation to strictly the webmaster crowd who know how to monetize, or those lookign to monetize, then yup, the slice is much denser with those who would use such a system. ;)

Leosghost




msg:4394904
 8:21 pm on Dec 6, 2011 (gmt 0)

Taken with your other comments above, that sounds like you are saying that you don't have enough inventory ( ads being bought and paid for via the "adcenter" ) to make it worthwhile to you,( not enough ROI on hardware and staff and other resources, servers etc ), to get involved in running a "contextual ads placement / insertion" program for website "publishers"..

bingdude




msg:4394995
 1:35 am on Dec 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

Taken with your other comments above, that sounds like you are saying that you don't have enough inventory ( ads being bought and paid for via the "adcenter" ) to make it worthwhile to you,( not enough ROI on hardware and staff and other resources, servers etc ), to get involved in running a "contextual ads placement / insertion" program for website "publishers"..


Which is why its always tough to answer questions in places like this. ;) I haven't shared nearly the depth of detail an dinfo needed to fully explain this guys - simply not possible, publicly.

To your point, there is a ton of inventory in adCenter these days. Easily enough to support that side of the equation. But, as alluded too, there are so many other factors we need to consider, there is no simple, quick answer.

Leosghost




msg:4395027
 3:20 am on Dec 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

But then I'd seriously challenge your assertion of
Only a relatively small percentage of webmasters use contentual ad programs for revenue.

Over the last month or so, I've been putting together a new business, for which I needed around 20 basic items from suppliers, in each case I wanted to have more than one single company as a supplier of each item, so as to prevent stock shortages if one supplier should be delayed or cease trading..

Researching* the various items has led me all over the internet..and I can safely say that apart from actual manufacturers sites and alibaba and it's ilk and wikipedia..almost all of the sites that I have landed upon ( many hundreds ) have had contextual ads on them..the vast majority provided by Google via adsense or Doubleclick etc..

My normal searches are not webmaster related, and the same thing applies to them..over half of the landing pages that I encounter are running contextual ads..and many are running "search" from Google..

Your search engine, or if you prefer your "brand", was not "in front of my eyes" during any of this searching, nor was it presented to me ..your rival Google, was however..many, many times..

This will be the experience of the average searcher, if they do not begin their search with Bing..they will not encounter it or the Bing name or brand or "products", anywhere..

* I don't begin my searches with Bing because despite my being able to supposedly select "show all" ( of the items I was searching for, only one is manufactured here in France ) Bing steadfastly chooses to mix in far too many results from France ( from pages mentioning the products ) at the top of your serps, and in the first few pages, even with my OS in English and my browser set to English.. Bing thinks that because I'm in France, that any old French language page or French hosted result with the keyword(s) in has to be more relevant to me than one from a non French website..

Even if I have made my search phrase very specific..( and even if I have chosen "English results only" ) this behavior is even worse if one of the keywords is the same in both languages..the Geo IP filtering on your serps is so "heavy handed" that I don't search with Bing..

Thus I never see your advertisers, and consequently will not purchase from them via your search engine..( I have over the past month, placed many orders, at least half from adwords advertisers, for 3 and 4 figure sums, and these just "initial orders" ) as long as Bing ignores my preferences and insists upon wasting my time pushing me results based upon where I am, your advertisers will not get my eyeballs , nor my custom..

I can read French perfectly well, but I don't want to have to wade through serps with French people asking each other where in France they can get what I'm searching for, especially when I already know that, until I launch my business, that they cant get the items anywhere..I already did more than enough "market research" :)

This heavy handed geo targeting means that I cannot recommend your search engine to any of the ( estimated 600,000 ) anglophones living in France ( many of whom are retired ) I may come into contact with, many of whom speak and read only rudimentary French..your "where you are is what you want a lot of in your results, even if you and your browser language settings** say different" is IME forcing large numbers of expats into the serps of Google..

**I know from the "strings" that you require from YPN "partners" when searches are entered, since the search results merger with Yahoo!, that one has to send, amongst the other data, the "browser language setting", that, combined with the searcher choosing "show all" or "only English" if taken into account at your end, "should" result in English language results only :) 't would be a start :)

( maybe people in other countries which use other languages have better luck "narrowing down" Bing serps to a specific language, other than the one used "natively" where they are, than I have ? )

You will be able to "infer" from my reference to YPN that it is in my interest that your ( now joint ) ad platform is successful, but you need to iron out some "wrinkles", such as the above..you could also talk to Yahoo! about not restricting "partners" to specific countries, but instead allowing use of a "feed" by an approved publisher / partner, to access / run on any "market", as Google do with adsense and adsense premium accounts..

( The last "request" is not your decision I know :) ..but I thought it worth a mention.. "while I have your attention", I'd love not to have to send all traffic from outside my "market" to adsense versions of the same sites, taking off the "market" restrictions would be IMO a win for you, Yahoo! and "us" )..btw..by no means all of my sites run ads of a contextual nature ..some have contextual and direct ad sales mixed..some have no ads at all..

micklearn




msg:4395043
 4:52 am on Dec 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

I think that 90 percent of the SERP's that I come across, for almost all of the searches that I do, show sites that use contextual ad programs, no matter what search engine I use.


Please read that again, bingdude and tangor, as well...and my apologies for not including the fact that they *were* normal searches. They had nothing to do with being a webmaster and were performed on all major search engines.

Have you visited Best Buy or Home Depot online, lately? Ads by...take a guess...that kind of reinforces the title of this post...No?

Hope that doesn't sound like I'm coming off as a jerk, I'm just going by what I'm seeing after I hit that search button.

Habtom




msg:4395044
 4:53 am on Dec 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

He mentioned AdCenter and honestly I had to look it up. It is equivalent to Google's Adwords, and I forgot about AdCenter. But it didn't help when I was faced with "not compatible with your browser" message (I use chrome). I haven't seen this kind of message in a very long time.

tangor




msg:4395048
 5:16 am on Dec 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

Webmasters (especially those who monetize) are a different kind of web user. What we (webmasters who monetize) want and require is different than other searchers. We expect the rest of the web to generate income and, sadly, we're still the minority of web sites. Most sites have NO commercial aspects at all. That we, as monetizing webmasters see other sites with ads, etc., is because we are searching our own keywords/niche and that's a small part of the web.

With due respect to those begging that bing race to the rescue with immediate results, that's not going to happen, nor will bing reveal any specific plans IN PUBLIC. While I'm a fan of bing, I'm also a businessman (48 years) and never discussed any of my business strategies in public... and I doubt bing, or bingdude, will any more specific than myself as to future plans.

dstiles




msg:4395384
 10:11 pm on Dec 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

None of the 50-ish sites I design/host have adverts on them - at least, not from advert providers (a few direct from local companies).

Most online searches I make result in commercial-advert-free sites (ie no google etc ads).

This is just my own experience, of course.

I would comment, though, that a major source of google's MFA site problems seems to be advertising-based. Sites are designed, often, solely as an advertising-revenue site with no real meat behind them. They are optimised to rise above "real" sites which may not use adverts but provide good content.

If Bing were to produce something that easily permitted MFAs to monetize their sites via Bing, how soon before Bing results were as rubbish as google results?

zeus




msg:4395392
 10:30 pm on Dec 7, 2011 (gmt 0)

I mostly watch Google image, Bing image and I must say that Bing image these days is getting better, I still miss that they spider whole sites, but they are on a good way. Also webmasters still benefit from Bing Images be cause they also show the original site and direct links, where Google image steals the images, also there rankings are not getting better this year, so Bing its your time to pick up, but the time is now.

Web_speed




msg:4397001
 10:53 am on Dec 12, 2011 (gmt 0)

@ bingdude

I read your reply with much interest. Thanks for taking the time from you busy schedule to answer our questions.

I have no doubt how complicated it must be and the amount of planning required for it all.

1) From alot of experience (I've been a webmaster since 1997) i can safely say that a vast majority of content and news sites do use contextual ads to monetize their content. i visit dozens of websites every day... it is quite hard nowadays to find a websites that doesn't. Adsense in particular is almost everywhere.

2) Custom site search boxes are a highly sought after item for many websites too. In fact i often need them for the content on my own websites. They will FLY once you guys will have them available, not to mention the monetary incentive for webmasters to use them. They can make bing a household name almost overnight.

3) You guys need to take a chance just like that other search engine took and look where they are at now. They simply unleashed the adsense program and within a year their brand was duly plastered at the top of almost every second page on the web. Not only it brought them great click revenue, it also helped pushing a LOT of new advertisers their way and feed back into the adwords program.

Bingdude, take it to the board..... it will be a massive win win for all. You guys just need to take a chance. You already have a lot of webmasters itching to change camp... get on with it.

I have no doubt it will fly! .... in fact, I keep dreaming how i seat with Steve Balmer and give him a run up myself :).

IMO, unleashing a killer program (or atleast the start of a killer program) may require a very small investment... and the returnes?... well check out Google recent ad programs results... need i say more? :)

The market is there and its itching for viable competitor... you guys just need to jump in. Unleash it, pay reasonable rates and THEY WILL COME... just like they came queuing for the adsense/adwords programs.


P.S.
I have my own custom built contextual network. A system i built myself from the ground up (in perl) in about three weeks. It runs very efficiently on a slow shred host (for almost 4 year now) and at times service more then 150 different (subscribed client) web sites, this system crawls pages in real time, analyze the on page content and pull from a database matching products right to client many pages. ..... and all in real time and form a shared host... :)

Do not hesitate letting me know if you want to check it out, I'll be more then happy to inbox a link.

Cheers... and keep up the great job!

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