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Deprecated - Microsoft Windows OS (XP/NT/Vista) Forum

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Microsoft To Lock Pirates Out Of Vista PCs
engine




msg:3108474
 5:42 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

Windows Vista will have new antipiracy technology that locks people out their PCs if the operating system isn't activated within 30 days after installation.

If Vista is not activated with a legitimate product registration key in time, the system will run in "reduced functionality mode" until it is activated, said Thomas Lindeman, a senior product manager at Microsoft. In this mode, people will be able to use a Web browser for up to an hour, after which time the system will log them out, he said.

Microsoft To Lock Pirates Out Of Vista PCs [news.com.com]

 

rocco




msg:3108479
 5:47 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

I hope the detection system works smoother than their current one, I get constantly warnings of not having an original version, but I am sure I have an original version, and it is registered. Unfortunately, their support does not help, either.

WiseWebDude




msg:3108515
 6:12 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

If only Microsoft would focus on what we WANT instead of trying to squeeze every possible grand out of us all, they MIGHT have a good, STABLE system! I think I'm going to go over to a Mac next and forgoe Microsoft...hmmm

greenleaves




msg:3108527
 6:22 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

I wonder how long it will take someone publish a patch for this "protection system".

My vote is on 10min to 12 hours :D .

Normally I am white hat, but when it comes to Micro$oft; go lesser of two evils!

bateman_ap




msg:3108531
 6:26 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

If you don't want to buy it go and install Linux on your machine or maybe buy a Mac and never upgrade the system, shock horror they also charge you for upgrades don't you know. I personally can't see the problem in trying to prevent your software being copied, after all how many threads start with "help someone has copied my site"

mr_lumpy




msg:3108576
 6:41 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

Hey rocco,

My Dad is in exactly the same boat as you. His one week old Dell PC started complaining about being pirated (the only piracy my Dad is aware of is Pirates of the Carribean).

Anyway, we ended up just installing some WGA kill program...Now he can't get to windows update on the web... nice, MS!

They are not ready for prime-time with the whole genuine advantage program.

shigamoto




msg:3108578
 6:43 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

Nothing wrong with that.. When XP was released I think they made similar statements? Someone somewhere will probably come up with a patch sooner or later.

What I'm more interested in is what the BENEFITS of upgrading to Vista are. It's often talked about functions, you can search that or sort that, but what's the real benefit for the user?

mrjohncory




msg:3108598
 6:49 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

I personally can't see the problem in trying to prevent your software being copied

Generally, I agree, stealing is bad, yeah, ok.

But I think the issue here is that MS is making machines that are YET easier to mess up, right?

Everyone buys MS, yknow? Businesses, schools, churches, individuals . . . If it's really as simple as missing a 30 day window, sounds to me like this makes it possible for everyday people to make mistakes that could potentially cost them hundreds to hundreds of thousands of dollars to correct.

"Oops, Jimmy in IT screwed up the computers and says they don't work and the leasing won't take them back . . . guess we're out $60k."

Wouldn't you like to be the clueless administrative assistant in that situation?

beakertrail




msg:3108632
 7:00 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

If you add up all the dollars MS spends on preventing piracy and the loss of earnings from pirated software then you can get an idea of how much cheaper MS software would be if people didn't pirate it so often.

koan




msg:3108660
 7:22 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

If you add up all the dollars MS spends on preventing piracy and the loss of earnings from pirated software then you can get an idea of how much cheaper MS software would be if people didn't pirate it so often.

I don't think companies in quasi monopoly positions go "oh, we're making more money this year with our product, let's drop its price...".

It's usually the opposite.

greenleaves




msg:3108670
 7:27 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

If you add up all the dollars MS spends on preventing piracy and the loss of earnings from pirated software then you can get an idea of how much cheaper MS software would be if people didn't pirate it so often.

'Common. The numbers both the music and software industry publish as to how much they loose are REDICULOUS to say the least.

There is an old saying "statistics lie, and liars use statistics"

Do you know how they get those numbers? They add up all the value of all the pirated software and then claim that is what they are loosing. The fact is 97% of all copied software/music (much from 3rd world countries where the annual per capita is similar to the price of a new version of windows) would not have bought the software if they couldn't get a pirate version.

I am not saying it is ok to steal. What I am saying is that if Microsoft concentrated on producing a better product, instead of putting their efforts into anti-piracy features which will be defeated in a quarter of a second, they would do better.

I know many people that don't use Microsoft, and if they felt M$ produced a better product, they would probably buy.

I know a lot of people who use pirated software and no matter what the efforts by Microsoft, they will always use pirated software.

And I also know a lot of people with legitimate software that are being harassed with little to no support.

I am not saying it is ok to steal. I just feel this is a waste of money and resources that legitimate windows users end up paying to a Monopoly.

<controversial>Not to mention the hypocrisy of Microsoft (for people who know the companies less than squeaky clean history)</controversial>

WebDon




msg:3108720
 8:08 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

"Oops, Jimmy in IT screwed up the computers and says they don't work and the leasing won't take them back . . . guess we're out $60k."

Maybe this is a little hardcore and somewhat off topic but I think I like the idea of some of people having an incentive to hire someone who knows what they're doing in first place instead of using their friend because they won't charge them and then complaining about how much it costs to get the mess cleaned up later.

I sincerely believe that it's generally better to spend a little more up front and get it done right than to cut corners and take your chances.

[edited by: WebDon at 8:09 pm (utc) on Oct. 4, 2006]

iJeep




msg:3108721
 8:11 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

No big deal. Really, Windows is priced reasonably inline with other major software products. If I want to upgrade I don't mind paying a couple hundred (not saying I will upgrade though).

When I was reinstalling XP on a computer at the office I had a problem with one of the codes or something. I called MS and they had me running right within 10 min. I was surprised.

Harry




msg:3108730
 8:19 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

Usually, when company create schemes to protect their software, they hurt their legitimate clients. Pirates just don't care and after spending a few hours, will find a workaround. It's the genuine user who doesn't know what a warez is that suffers through the arcane registration system and police state being installed around products they bought/license.

I wish companies would wake up to that fact. Why piss of the majority of your customer, to get at someone who's not even a potential client?

aleksl




msg:3108748
 8:31 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

If you add up all the dollars MS spends on preventing piracy and the loss of earnings from pirated software then you can get an idea of how much cheaper MS software would be if people didn't pirate it so often.

Bull, as someone pointed out earlier, 95% of "pirates" would never buy Windows for $150. No wonder Linux is going to dominate outside US.

And to paraphrase a situation by mrjohncory:

"Oops, Jimmy in IT screwed up the computers and says they don't work..and Selma in payroll can't do paychecks, and Sally in accounting can't do quarterly report, so our shareholders are pissed and already started dumping stock...so we are suing Micro$oft for punitive damages"

This WILL happen..and once it will, there will be a "patch" or "workaround".. and oviously in 12 hours there will be a hack. The world will go on.

mrjohncory




msg:3108756
 8:38 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

Why piss of the majority of your customer to get at someone who's not even a potential client?

Because you've become a bureaucratic behemoth that can no longer see the big picture? Or because your business decisions are made by legions of accountants and lawyers, not the engineering, entrepreneurial and philosophical types that originally made your product famous? I'm just guessing here.

Naw, not so fast . . . I honestly think MS does pretty well considering how huge they are. I use *some* of their software every day without a lot of problems.

OvertureUser




msg:3108806
 9:28 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

Greenleaves IMHO is right on both of his posts. There was an anti validation patch for XP and there will be one for Vista. I'm semi white hat also but the lesser of the 2 evils in this case has got to be MS. I reformatted one time and after trying to validate XP it said something similar to "this key is in use" so I called up MS explained my situation and they said that this key has been used on at least 2 systems (which MS lets you do, one for home PC and one for laptop) which it wasn't. Only thing I could think of was that someone got a keygen somewhere and it coincidentally generated my key and some kid validated his (my) software with it.

"Do you know how they get those numbers? They add up all the value of all the pirated software and then claim that is what they are loosing. The fact is 97% of all copied software/music (much from 3rd world countries where the annual per capita is similar to the price of a new version of windows) would not have bought the software if they couldn't get a pirate version."

That is the truth. I have a friend. Let's just call him "I" (now the feds are gonna be knocking down my door). "I" has pirated software and if "I" wouldn't have gotten a pirated copy, "I" wouldn't have went out and bought them. Therefore, "I" didn't cost the company any actual money because "I" was never a potential customer. "I" just wanted something for nothing. Not saying its not illegal because it is. The numbers on how much piracy costs companies are just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off. Then because of "potential" lost money, costs on software goes up, then there are actual potential customers that aren't willing to pay that much.

P.S. - I'm not antiMicrosoft. I actually pro whatever works best for you. I use windows mostly, then kubuntu/ubuntu, followed by redhat, and then finally OS X. I just don't agree with how MS spends their money. I think it should be less on piracy and more on everything else.

mm1220




msg:3108914
 11:04 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

The fact is 97% of all copied software/music ... would not have bought the software if they couldn't get a pirate version.

Bull, as someone pointed out earlier, 95% of "pirates" would never buy Windows for $150.

Where did these percentage figures come from?

Leosghost




msg:3108949
 11:33 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

Most of the people who have problems with their legit XP suddenly being declared invalid is because MS said exactly the same about Xp ..30 days cut off point without WGA and activation code ..and so keygens were made that generated random codes ( based on hash values of youir installed componants multiplied by your grannies birthday etc ) to be fed to doze customer activation either automatically or to real reps ..

then one day ..you need to re-activate your suddenly trashed doze ...XP was supposed to be too stable and well protected ever to need a reformat ;-))..remember the hype ..

thats the day that Redmond say no ..because someone has a keygen generated XP running ..which has the same base ID that yours does ..and they already activated theirs ..via Redmond .( not the only way to do so ..but the most comon used by those who just "torrented" themselves down an iso ..but dont know how to do anything else )..and Redmond has decided on a first come first served basis that theirs is the legit version ..the lucky people get to speak to a rep from MS who know just how dumb that is as way to verify authenticity and they give you another working active code ..MS theory says that only one answer can come out of the hash made from your install ID and your machine and so it ought to be failsafe ..

that "security" would only work if corporations and constructors couldn't get "clone your HD" deals from MS and if certain other things couldnt be worked around ..

now if they'd used the same level of security that they put into Xbox from the very first one ..it would have been a whole different ball game ..but Xbox was wrapped much tighter be just a game player to stop people getting their hands on a pentium III with a near 10 gig HD and usefull RAM ( for it's day at $150.oo it was a third the price for those specs that equivalent pc was ) and running linux on it as it didn't have doze of any normal flavour installed ..that was the real nightmare to be avoided ..( whatever the PR dept said otherwise ) ..so that protection was wrapped into the bus ..

I know at least 8 ways to open XP and get it working without the phone call ( there must be more ..but I got bored and it was just academic exercise to try them out ..some of what you see as "working" on the tubes ..doesn't and is laughable ) ..mine are legal because ..amonst other things ..I may get controlled at any time .. and the OS is cheap ..although it costs me much more here than it does in the states and the translated help files are not done well ..;)

but it certainly wasn't fear of not being able to "update" that made me stay legit with XP..( rather than burn an iso or clone an HD and "adjust" the reg .. ) ..

already the best way to not have problems with doze is in this order ..

run a regmon ..
dont click OK ( without really knowing what you are saying yes to ) ..anyone can make that lil grey box ..
and disable auto update from doze..

you can always get the updates from the sites that do standalones of whatever it was ..and you wont be Redmonds beta tester of their latest panic driven hotfix ..and are then less likely to hose your OS ..

vista has already been distributed "working" in the alternative channels of the tubes ..no - one is much impressed ..and the exploits have been and are being discovered as we type and read ..

the greatest barrier to the unauthorised distro of vista will be the machine specs required to make it do anything other than crawl ..unlike XP which whilst it does prefer 1 gig of ram and a P4 or equivalent will run on a laptop with a celeron 400 and 64 megs of ram ..( just dont ask it to dance and make coffee on those specs ;-) ..nor run office ..( although I have a toshiba that is those specs and has office in there ..I dont use office tho ) ..but it can email and even run zbrush and some other awkward stuff ..and old toshibas are solid ..

but MS's vista protection is already obselete ..and considering that they let the OS out in test so widely ..they knew that anyway ..adding in a layer of slightly better protection wont stop anyone ..and MS probably dont intend to do so ..

they and their partners in software such as Adobe etc would rather you ran cracked doze than free linux ..

edited ..some spelling ..missed some more ;-))

[edited by: Leosghost at 11:38 pm (utc) on Oct. 4, 2006]

Stuart_S




msg:3108965
 11:49 pm on Oct 4, 2006 (gmt 0)

They should make this release free. Globally! It would lessen the damage of open source and ensure the next generaition of users are on it.

MS have forgotten what got them to where they are. If it were not for everyone being easily able to pass copies of Windows, from 3.1 to 98, around they wouldn't have the market share they enjoy today.

maherphil




msg:3108985
 12:17 am on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

If it were not for everyone being easily able to pass copies of Windows, from 3.1 to 98, around they wouldn't have the market share they enjoy today.

Interesting point. I was thinking that it was about time that they started to really lock down the puters they are put on. Myself will weigh the options of linux if the windows proposition isn't over the top more exciting.

kaled




msg:3108997
 12:42 am on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

Let's suppose that Vista does successfully lock out the pirates (and no genuine copies)... so what? Pirates will continue to use XP or maybe even 2000 for another year or two.

Can anyone out there actually give a single solid reason for upgrading to Vista? If reports about it being resource-hungry are accurate, frankly you'd have to have a screw loose to use it (or a supercomputer on steroids).

Kaled.

Leosghost




msg:3108998
 12:44 am on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

this last para should have read ..I missed the edit window ..

**but MS's vista protection is already obselete ..and considering that they let the OS out in test so widely ..they knew that anyway ..adding in a layer of slightly better protection wont stop anyone ..and MS probably dont intend to do so ..

they and their partners in software such as Adobe etc would rather you ran cracked doze than you run free linux**

Leosghost




msg:3109012
 1:02 am on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

they will need to persuade Adobe to make next version of their apps "vista only can run this" upgrades ..that will get them the segment which is prepared to spend the most money to have the latest visual bells and whistles ..and can write the entire expense off against tax ..

big ad agencies and design studios ..

followed by the slaves to web fashion who have more money ( plus CPU cycles and RAM ) ..than brains ..

unles Adobe can be persuaded to do some thing "really must have" to flash and / or photoshop that they and MS can convince or insist that you need vista for ..the uptake will be slow ..

or unless they can make a "need it to see the content" deal with the new generation of blue ray / HDDVD product or software dev companies ( ahead? et al ) and the hardware market they will have hard time selling it's "advantages" to the home market ..

and the last nero already runs blue ray ..and strangely enough has MS type totalitarian designs upon any hard drive it gets near to ..

here at least ( France ) if you want to run vista ..the basic spec machine will cost you over $2000.oo without screen ..and will still be slow ..you need to spend ( or already have available because you run high end 3D apps ..at least $3000.oo worth of hardware ..again not counting screen ) ..

about the same cost as autodesk's 3dsmax ( latest ) if you arent updating ..

even though I can write the cost off ..I dont need vista installed to run that kind of app ..

transparent ( alpha channel icons ..oh my! ) isn't an incentive either :-)

walkman




msg:3109220
 7:48 am on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

>> If only Microsoft would focus on what we WANT instead of trying to squeeze every possible grand out of us all, they MIGHT have a good, STABLE system! I think I'm going to go over to a Mac next and forgoe Microsoft...hmmm

well, pardon them for not wanting people to rip them off. People have a choice: MSFT, apple, linux, another OS or not use a computer; stealing is not justfied (or at least whining when the owner is craacking down).

Angelis




msg:3109239
 8:25 am on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

Just so everyone knows if you call Microsoft about the system not working correctly they will issue you with a new code.

I know as I have ahd to do it about 3 times... They are not all that bad...

djmick200




msg:3109307
 10:33 am on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

Windows Vista will have new antipiracy technology that locks people out their PCs if the operating system isn't activated within 30 days after installation.

I really had to laugh at this. Their heads are so far up their own and each others backsides at MS that they actually believe their own hype.

I totally agree that they should want to protect their product but haven't we heard these types of claim before from MS?

Two words come to mind when reading that statement: Pantip Plaza

Now if that name is familliar to you then you'll know exactly what Im talking about, if not it is a shopping mall in Bangkok, Thailand that deals in IT and electronics. It is probably the most blatant seller of pirated software, games, cd's & dvd's you are ever likely to see in such surroundings. This is not a market or backstreet stall.

All microsoft, adobe, symantec etc products are 100baht. 1.40 - $2.60. It is one of the most popular tourist destinations in Bangkok and very popular with the locals.

For MS to think that Vista won't be on sale here with a bypass to their antipiracy technology then their heads are buried very deeply. Nor wiil I be surprised if it is on sale before the official launch too. I recall seeing beta versions being sold in Jan 2005 there.

That is just one place I know, what of all the other countries that do the same?

Though it does fall back to the point that these buyers at Pantip Plaza aren't lost customers as most (at a guess) wouldn't pay for an original in the first place.

kaled




msg:3109339
 11:22 am on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

stealing is not justified

Under UK consumer law, faults that exist at the time of manufacture have to corrected even outside the guarantee period. Given that MS has dropped support for Windows 98 and will no longer offer security patches (for faults that existed at the time of manufacture) it could be argued that owners of Win98 are justified in stealing a copy of 2000 or XP.

Also, so far as I am aware, MS has never stated on product packaging that they will only provide patches for a limited period of time.

From a legal point of view, MS should allow users to upgrade to new operating systems using existing CD keys but with functionality limits. Given that MS already implements functionality limits (XP PRO/HOME, etc.) it is clear that there is no technical reason for not doing this - merely a commercial one.

Kaled.

mr_lumpy




msg:3109441
 1:09 pm on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

Anyone see this (from today)?

Hilarious:

[forums.microsoft.com...]

If this is for VLK, what the heck hope does the average user have?

walkman




msg:3109684
 4:08 pm on Oct 5, 2006 (gmt 0)

>> Under UK consumer law, faults that exist at the time of manufacture have to corrected even outside the guarantee period. Given that MS has dropped support for Windows 98 and will no longer offer security patches (for faults that existed at the time of manufacture) it could be argued that owners of Win98 are justified in stealing a copy of 2000 or XP.

Let's see: MSFT with a brigade of lawyers and $billions to lose if they get sued decides to violates British law. I, somehow doubt it.

Second, even IF what you say is right, you don't "take things" because you think it will even the score, you let the law decide. Not to sound as holier than thou, but if you steal, at least don't expect any updates; it's not too much to ask.

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