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Steve Jobs: Thoughts On Flash
engine

WebmasterWorld Administrator engine us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month Best Post Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 1:38 pm on Apr 29, 2010 (gmt 0)

Steve Jobs: Thoughts On Flash [apple.com]
I wanted to jot down some of our thoughts on Adobe’s Flash products so that customers and critics may better understand why we do not allow Flash on iPhones, iPods and iPads. Adobe has characterized our decision as being primarily business driven – they say we want to protect our App Store – but in reality it is based on technology issues. Adobe claims that we are a closed system, and that Flash is open, but in fact the opposite is true. Let me explain.

New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind.


 

lavazza

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 9:16 pm on Apr 30, 2010 (gmt 0)

an absolutely huge amount of the content on the web (that currently exists) is delivered via Flash.
You say this like it's a good thing...

If so, why?

kapow

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 3:14 pm on May 1, 2010 (gmt 0)

What happens to Apple if Adobe reponds with the same kind of action? ie what if all Adobe products block Macs (and offer a free PC licence to folk wishing to exchang their Mac-Adobe licence)? How long before the Designers get a PC?

zeus

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Msg#: 4124337 posted 11:33 pm on May 5, 2010 (gmt 0)

we all know thats not the reason, they could still have added flash to ipad and HTML5 would also work, thats pure business and nothing els, said to see apple keeping that bizz line.

Still waiting for the HP slate with windows 7, USB, flash, camara...

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 12:33 am on May 6, 2010 (gmt 0)

All this HTML5 vs Flash speculation actually makes me giggle.

The web is still powered by a lot of archaic software, many sites still running on abandoned products, yet they persist 10 years after the company that built them went extinct.

Flash by comparison is far more current, pervasive and ingrained into the internet, even with all the irrational Flash haters, it's persists and will be here easily 5 years from now, maybe longer.

Tons of Flash art galleries, videos and games exist, yet Apple blocks people from viewing or playing them.

Can you imagine not being able to see Joe Cartoon?

I'd be seriously upset.

These sites won't be instantly redone in HTML5 anymore than sites running 10 year old defunct technology are rebuilt using PHP simply because of raw economics.

Therefore, Apple really has no choice but to incorporate legacy Flash unless they ultimately intend to lose their market share because ultimately consumers won't put up with their corporate crap when Apple is the *only* product that no longer supports Flash.

At the moment they're just one of several, soon to become one of one, that's when the pressure starts and people start to get annoyed.

FYI, I went to lunch with a friend yesterday who was literally hissing and spitting about his wife's iPhone and lack of support for stuff like Flash, I told him to watch for the new Verizon and Sprint phones coming out that support it!

Another friend's wife was hell bent to buy an iPad when they came out until she found out her favorite video sites didn't work in the iPad browser, of course there were 'apps' for that and I didn't bother telling her this, but the lack of browser support cost them another sale.

Just doing my share ;)

swa66

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Msg#: 4124337 posted 7:11 am on May 9, 2010 (gmt 0)

Name 1 other non-Apple product where the manufacturer blocks you from customizing your purchase as you see fit. I am not talking about discouraging you, I am talking about proactively taking steps to outright block you from customizing it.

Let's take an easy example: Windows 7 has DRM features in it that make it impossible for you to do as you please. E.g. it will outright refuse to play HD video content on a screen that has no HDCP and is digitally connected to the machine. This is intentional on MSFT's part and they do go out of their way to make it impossible for you to do so (e.g. XP would not give you trouble to do that).
Content gets loads of protection as there is a lot of money to be made and there are very powerful lobby efforts behind it. Don't like it: don't buy it as you will have bought limitations along with it no matter what.

swa66

WebmasterWorld Senior Member swa66 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 7:16 am on May 9, 2010 (gmt 0)

Blocking flash is a maggot in the apple; its a stupid big neon sign saying "Hey competitors! kill me by providing flash"

But whoever does so will have to deal with a "touch" GUI that's not the same as the "mouse" GUI all the applications written in Flash are designed for.
E.g. mouse-over: how will you do it in touch ? The flash app waits for the event, but the concept doesn't exist in the user interface ...
Hence not going to work.

IanKelley

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 7:58 am on May 9, 2010 (gmt 0)

E.g. mouse-over: how will you do it in touch ?


It's simple, many touch applications already work this way: tap to select (hover) tap again to activate.

If that is the strongest argument for not letting people use flash on their touch device...

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 6:52 pm on May 9, 2010 (gmt 0)

Flash works fine on HP's TouchSmart desktops so there's no reason it wouldn't work on an smart phone.

tangor

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Msg#: 4124337 posted 7:08 pm on May 9, 2010 (gmt 0)

There may be more to the story than what the Apple Ghod uttered...

As Steve Jobs goes out of his way to badmouth Adobe Flash and keep it off both the iPhone and the iPad, Apple is developing its own Flash alternative.

Citing tweets from a developer who viewed a demo of the technology, AppleInsider reports that Steve Jobs and company are developing a standards-based framework for building rich internet applications (RIAs). They call it Gianduia, after, um, an Italian hazelnut chocolate.

Apple demoed the technology last summer at World of WebObjects Developer Conference (WOWODC), an independent conference meant to coincide with Apple's own Worldwide Developer Conference (WWDC). And as Appleinsider tells it, a developer who calls himself Jonathan "Wolf" Rentzsch outed the demo with a post to Twitter. "[Gianduia] essentially is browser-side Cocoa (including CoreData) + WebObjects, written in JavaScript by non-js-haters," he tweeted. "Jaw dropped."

[theregister.co.uk...]

swa66

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Msg#: 4124337 posted 2:38 pm on May 13, 2010 (gmt 0)


E.g. mouse-over: how will you do it in touch ?

It's simple, many touch applications already work this way: tap to select (hover) tap again to activate.

I've used quite a few iPhone apps. NONE use that UI. The concept of hover in the apple touch UI simply does not exist.
Allowing apps to pullute the interface would indeed take away from the device.

If that means no flash: not missed it once on my iPhone yet.

Demaestro

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Msg#: 4124337 posted 3:16 pm on May 13, 2010 (gmt 0)

Windows 7 has DRM features in it that make it impossible for you to do as you please. E.g. it will outright refuse to play HD video content on a screen that has no HDCP and is digitally connected to the machine.


Sure Win7 DRM does some dumb stuff. DRM is just dumb all around, the difference being Win7 will still allow me to install something that will workaround the DRM.

The iPhone will stop me from installing something that will give me a workaround, and if I do manage to install a workaround then they will discontinue my support and they will try to make me feel like a criminal for bypassing their locked behaviors.

It's simple, many touch applications already work this way: tap to select (hover) tap again to activate.


I've used quite a few iPhone apps. NONE use that UI.


He doesn't mean on an iPhone, he means on things like the HP vista and Win7 touch screens. The point being that other touch screen devices have resolved this issue. It isn't an insurmountable problem to add a hover event to a touch device.

If that means no flash: not missed it once on my iPhone yet.


Well then the iPhone is perfect for you. Maybe next year they will tell you what phone numbers they don't want you calling. 1-900-555-5555... "sorry, this number COULD contain adult content, we have conveniently blocked this call for you."

swa66

WebmasterWorld Senior Member swa66 us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 3:27 am on May 15, 2010 (gmt 0)

What strikes me is that none of those complaining about apple actually state owning an affected device and state it as a comment from the perspective as the user of the device.

I have no iPad, nor intention to own anythign similar to it. A laptop and an iPhone is enough, I don't need a oversized iPod touch. But I do use my iPhone a lot (spend at least an hour every day using it for email and web on the train).

IMHO not having flash is a non-issue on the iPhone. I've never missed it, nor heard complaining from friends and co workers who use iPhone too. All those hwo have one seem to love the device.
So those who want to have an oversized iPod touch would likely find it a non-issue as well IMHO. [Granted a webmaster having an investment in flash might feel different, so I'm talking about the average user perspective, nto the webmaster perspective.]

As for flash games: There's a huge assortment of free games in the app store, why would one ever be interested in downloading one over and over from a website instead of having something on the device itself that's instantly there when you want it is beyond me.

As far as Adobe goes: I'm a customer of theirs too. And the rates they charge for upgrades are really outrageous IMHO. 800 EUR for upgrading from CS4 to CS5 ... why would I ? I know I upgraded to CS4 due to adobe not supporting the raw format in CS3 of my new camera Adn I upgraded to CS3 from CS2 due to adobe not wanting to compile CS2 for the intel CPU, but I've not yet seen anything that breaks CS4 for me yet. If it were not for Illustrator, I'd dump PS for aperture -much cheaper- and no silly we don't support your camera issues.

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 4:08 am on May 15, 2010 (gmt 0)

IMHO not having flash is a non-issue on the iPhone. I've never missed it, nor heard complaining from friends and co workers who use iPhone too


I have a friend that hisses and spits about how bad his iPhone is and few others looking to get rid of theirs as well.

Not getting an iPhone was a non-issue too.

Strikes against iPhone:

- Can't upgrade memory
- Can't change battery
- Locked into buggy iTunes
- No Flash software
- Camera quality too low
- No multi-tasking
- Lack of magnetometer
- Lack of open source
- Requires MAC to develop apps

It was only logical, Spock himself wouldn't get one.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
- Spock regarding Steve Jobs irrational inflexibility on Flash

IanKelley

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 4124337 posted 5:57 am on May 15, 2010 (gmt 0)

You can almost forgive not putting flash on a cell phone... not many people are going to be doing the kind of web browsing using their phone where it would become an issue.

But the iPad? That's a PC. All the companies currently rushing Android, Windows Mobile and Blackberry OS tablets to market couldn't ask for better news.

We should thank Apple, they have guaranteed that every other cell phone OS is going to support Flash in it's next major version update. Adobe should be thanking them too.

incrediBILL

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Msg#: 4124337 posted 7:03 pm on May 15, 2010 (gmt 0)

not many people are going to be doing the kind of web browsing using their phone where it would become an issue.


Oh?

Many of my favorite video sites use flash and some good cartoons are in flash too.

Planning a wedding and looking for a wedding photographer?

You better have Flash to view most of their sites, or almost any photographer for that matter, unless you just consider them suddenly disenfranchised to the iCommunity.

See, when people start rationalizing what other people will or won't do with a smart phone, or any other browser for that matter, is when we start getting into trouble.

Everyone is different, has different needs, and will use the smart phone differently so putting artificial road blocks on the internet just makes that iDevice less useful for the masses.

Especially when it's done purely because some ego maniacal corporate cult leader is grinding his own personal axe in his own personal egocentric brand.

Not good for anyone, especially the loyal cultists caught in the hype and the crossfire.

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