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Google Frame - Chrome Plugin HTML 5 Upgrade for IE
trillianjedi




msg:3993665
 7:29 pm on Sep 22, 2009 (gmt 0)

Even though we firmly believe IE6 must die, it’s not going away any time soon. Now, however, Google has come up with a creative way to improve the experience of Internet Explorer users, without making them actually upgrade or switch to another browser.

The company has launched Google Chrome Frame, which is a plugin for IE that “seamlessly brings Google Chrome’s open web technologies and speedy JavaScript engine to Internet Explorer.” In other words, it’s all the behind the scenes features that make Chrome fast and allow it to support modern browser features, but within the IE interface.

[mashable.com...]

[edited by: incrediBILL at 11:34 pm (utc) on Sep. 22, 2009]
[edit reason] removed repeating words [/edit]

 

swa66




msg:3996122
 7:59 am on Sep 26, 2009 (gmt 0)

antisocial

[wordnetweb.princeton.edu...] :
criminal behavior or conduct that violates the rights of other individuals is antisocial

Microsoft has been found multiple times to be violating the rules set forth intended to protect consumers and has been convicted multiple times for defying the EU in these matters.
[google.com...]
In my book the definition above and the facts of Microsoft being convicted for such is more than enough proof to conclude that Microsoft is antisocial.

With apologies to the fanboys.

The real issue remains: how to get rid faster of IE6, 7 and 8 so they stop being the anchor that keeps the boat of progress moving ahead.
And the plugin from Google might be a very small step towards that goal.

poppyrich




msg:3997340
 10:06 pm on Sep 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

@swa66

>The real issue remains: how to get rid faster of IE6, 7 and 8 so they stop being the anchor that keeps the boat of progress moving ahead.

Once again, no specifics on what constitutes the boat of progress. (Although I would assume that a proper implementation of the CSS "float" property would be essential, though.)
How about we narrow it down to IE8. What features are lacking in IE8 that keeps the boat of progress from moving ahead? I'm really quite serious, I'd like to know what you consider an important feature.

swa66




msg:3997354
 10:43 pm on Sep 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

IE8 will be:
  • a major roadblock to widespread adoption of SVG (It still implements VML instead, that failed to become a standard). We'll be stuck with doing graphics in gif/jpg and png for many years or be forced to detect browsers and make our vector graphics twice, like google maps is doing today.
  • A roadblock to the widespread adoption of CSS3 (not implemented any of the things all other browsers are rolling out at a rapid rate, unless it happened to be one of their proprietary things in IE6 and IE7 that accidentally already had it -they have people on the w3c dealing with CSS3, so accident is an understatement- )
  • A roadblock to the adoption of new CSS3 selectors even in other browsers due to an overly conservative implementation of CSS2.1 considering them syntax errors.
    Let me explain this one a bit deeper as most might not get the importance of this:

    a {
    color: red;
    }

    works in all browsers I guess.

    Now if we add a CSS3 selector such as p::fist-line (not a typo, that's a CSS3 pseudo element) and want to to be red too there are two ways to add it:

    - using the cascade as we should

    a, p:first-line {
    color: red;
    }

    - or overdoing it all by repeating it all:

    a {
    color: red;
    }
    p::first-line {
    color: red;
    }

    What do current versions of virtually all browsers do: render it as intended in both cases.

    What does IE8 do? it considers "p::first-line" a syntax error (and it is according to CSS2.1, not according to CSS3) and it throws out all of the statement (as it should per the CSS2.1 standard, but not according to CSS3).

    So adding that p::first-line selector as we should add it, using the cascade to its maximum (the first example) will not only not make the first lines of paragraphs red, but it will ALSO stop the links being red.

    I've used here an example that's easy to work around but CSS3 has _many_ new more selectors up it's sleeve that are far beyond IE8 and will cause IE8 to break in what will look at new users of CSS3 like random acts of resistance of IE8 (future users will not care if the selector was new for CSS3 or if it was already a standard in CSS2.1, all other browsers will do all of them just fine).

    See also the discussion of this after CSS co-moderator SuzyUK got bitten by this for the first time here: [webmasterworld.com...] (not the easiest thread to understand we have over at CSS to be honest, hence my simpler example above.)

  • It seems like Microsoft isn't going to be fixing rendering bugs in IE8, just like they did with its predecessors, yet again missing all chance to get rid of errors in the browser over time. (I'd like to be proven wrong MSFT!)
    Just fixing security issues every month and things like patent violations by Microsoft is what they did in the past. While not fixing well known rendering bugs is what makes IE6 the worst browser in use today.

  • I'm sure the javascript people will have something to add, but I'll leave it to them ...

My bottom line: it's still going to be the next "IE6" after IE6 and IE7 respectively, and from the track record of IE6 getting Microsoft customers to upgrade their poor excuse for a browser is excessively hard and slow.

Laxon




msg:3997360
 11:11 pm on Sep 28, 2009 (gmt 0)

on topic of the actual plugin, I think it is a good idea.
Someone better than me said a few days ago that some IT professionals in companies cant even consider changing IE to something else. But they might consider something as easy as adding a plugin to the browser in use.

We will see how it goes, but if even a small % of users adapt to this it will leave us with some nicer looking options later on.

Off topic: anyone else notice that they used Bespin in the opening video on the chrome plugin page? :D

Slightly off topic: @poppyrich, I like your point in terms of customer vs user there its a valid look at their reasoning.

poppyrich




msg:3997718
 2:33 pm on Sep 29, 2009 (gmt 0)

@swa66:

It seems to me that the biggest beef with MSFT and IE is the endless perpetuation of any bugs that each new release of IE might contain. (BTW - I was a Beta tester for IE8, and right now, I've got an open (and confirmed) bug report for a text rendering bug that effects line-height in IE8 on XP that they certainly will not patch, and I don't consider it minor, either. I felt it was a mistake not do take an extra 60 days or so and do an RC2 with IE8 but Win7 was creeping up fast and they made the decision to move along. What can I say? They had tradeoffs to consider, as every software project does, and they made decisions.)
Now, what if they did attempt to patch these things now? There is, conservatively half a billion IE installations out there. How is it going to help developers knowing that some installations have been patched and some not? We're either going to writing for the lowest common denominator or we're not.
BTW - for every bug or missing feature you cite in IE, you can find others in FF, Chrome, Safari, and Opera.
As far as your list of bugs and/or missing features, the web has and will continue to grow at an astounding rate whether they are there or not. We all lobby for our favorite toys - but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that any less pages are being produced. You can argue that those pages could provide a richer experience, but like I said, we all lobby for our favorite toys.
Lastly, what's missing from all of these "IE is holding back the web" discussions (whatever "holding back the web" may mean) is the remedy. What exactly is it you would like MSFT to do that's going to fix the bug-perpetuation problem?
What's the plan? What's the price tag for MSFT? What's the cost to IE users in time and confusion?
You see, to get back to the original start of this thread, I view Chrome Frame as a Trojan horse. I think it's a disservice to the general, not particularly tech-savvy, consumer.
They are enticed to download and install this thing that they dimly understand because they trust Google and Google says it will help them. And then, it creates - as all of Google's stuff seems to do - an umbilical cord between the user and Google. And it does this by presenting the Chrome browser in the guise of IE.
At this point, what browser are they using? They think it's the blue E that came with Windows, but it's really something else.
Sorry, but I don't see this as a healthy situation. This is Browser Wars 2.0.
If they were looking to make the point that IE could be updated via plug-in, there were less intrusive ways to make that point.

swa66




msg:3997929
 6:58 pm on Sep 29, 2009 (gmt 0)

The biggest beef might be that they perpetuate bugs, that they perpetuate efforts of making a standard out of something invented in Redmond instead of settling that it didn't win and move on to what did win; thay they have total disregard for the users and roll out major changes in functionality if they might have a problem in court (eolas), but claim to not wantto upset those same users and fix ouright bugs (e.g. guillotine bug: who would ever be foolish enough to use that) that the shipped product simply isn't working properly, that they seem to consistently make the wrong decisions; ...

Basically they are MSFT.

If I were to kick out ballmer and set it on a proper path when it comes to IE: look at what *all* the other browsers are doing, finally catch up and then we can talk.

I'd love to be whining that mozilla didn't implement the CSS3 multiple background images in FF3.5, but decided to wait till 3.6 to do that. There are 2 big reasons not to do that however:
- it might not matter in the next decade till IE8 finally gets replaced, and
- their users will upgrade soon enough after 3.6 comes out, at least long before those strongholds of IE6 will upgrade.

Back OT:

The use of this add-on/plugin is very limited in practice but it
- might be a solution to those who have a top brass that's too stupid to understand real issues
- might be a way to put some more pressure on the top brass of MSFT to start to do the right thing for once.
As such I do applaud it.

What I'm really rooting for is a script like IE7.js and IE8.js that works in IE8 as well and boosts all of them to where the rest of the browsers are.
That's something -if it works as good as IE7.js or (one can always hope) even better- I would use and be done with the retard attitude IE is showing all the time.
jquery seems to go a long way to be able to fix some of those lacks and maybe that's a path to a IEXX.js (although Google's biggest gripe with IE is the poor Javascript engine it seems).
Maybe if the annoy me long enough I'll learn enough javascript one day.

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