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"phrase match" ad is not shown when using exact match in neg keyword
foxpyt




msg:4067661
 10:32 pm on Jan 25, 2010 (gmt 0)

Hi

I followed the advice of an "Expert" Bryan McConnahea explained in this blog: <snip>. Explaining that a good structured campaing should have a ad group A with exact match keywords and an ad group B with the same keywords with phrase match using the exact match as neg keyword to avoid to trigger the wring ad group.

When I created a campaign like this the phrase match ad group is not being shown. Google adword tooltip says "You may have included this keyword in your negative keyword list for this ad group. If your negative keywords overlap with your regular keywords, the negative keywords will block your regular keywords from showing your ad".

It have now the impression that it is not necessary to exclude the exact match keyword because Google will choose the most precise match i.e. the exact match anyway!

Am I right? I do I misunderstand the blog?

Nic

[edited by: buckworks at 11:04 pm (utc) on Jan. 25, 2010]
[edit reason] No URLs please; see TOS [/edit]

 

Rehan




msg:4067883
 6:36 am on Jan 26, 2010 (gmt 0)

Ignore the Ads diagnostic tool (and its associated tooltip) for phrase match keywords. It works properly only for exact match variations.

As for ad group structure, it can be worthwhile to put exact match and phrase match into separate ad groups. It should be unnecessary to add the negative exact keywords, because Google is supposed to use the most restrictive match type [adwords.google.com] ("When keywords are the same but have different match types, use the keyword with the most restrictive match type"). But I've read about that behavior supposedly not working properly for some people, though I've never seen it myself. So you can add the negative exact keywords in the phrase match adgroup to be on the safe side, if you want.

Anyway, although the tooltip is useless for the phrase match keywords, you can gauge whether the keywords are actually being displayed by keeping an eye on their impression counts. Use the Search Query Report and the "See search terms" function to find out which queries those keywords are showing for.

Hyponeros




msg:4068759
 7:33 am on Jan 27, 2010 (gmt 0)

I do separate my exact match and phrase match keywords into different adgroups and I am facing that problem where phrase match keywords are triggered instead of the exact match. It is most obvious when you check the search query performance report and you see the match type 'exact' in a phrase match only adgroup. So if you don't have too many keyword in your phrase match adgroup it makes sense to add them as negative exact.

babushka




msg:4080144
 8:43 pm on Feb 14, 2010 (gmt 0)

I have campaign setup similarly:

Adgroup A:

[some phrase]

Adgroup B:

"some phrase"

negative keyword: [some phrase]

Oddly enough, all the clicks for [some phrase] are being shown in adgroup B. Google Analytics reports the search query was exactly [some phrase].

It seems to not be working for me?

koncept




msg:4081381
 5:01 pm on Feb 16, 2010 (gmt 0)

I have been experiementing with using both match types but I set it up a bit differently and don't have any of these problems.

I put [keyword] and "keyword" in the same adgroup.
I bid one cent more for the exact match to be sure that if the exact match is searched google will grab that one.

To track them I give each one a unique destination url.

I am using this technique for broad terms. The other keywords in the same adgroup are more specific variations such as "keyword location" or "free keyword" etc. Using "keyword" alone helps me catch more traffic and find new keyword phrases.

If I determine that [keyword] exact match is not profitable or has a very poor ctr, I eliminate it and add [keyword] to my negatives. Adding it here has never stopped "keyword" from performing.

Only thing I can think of is that maybe you added the -[keyword] at the campaign level?

foxpyt




msg:4081613
 9:47 pm on Feb 16, 2010 (gmt 0)

No, I have the negative [keyword] at the ad group level containing the phrases "keyword".

Since my customer is a travel agency the keywords are combination of "travel to country" type. I should have thousands of impressions. However in the whole phrase ad group (with negativ exact match) has less than 10 impressions per day.

In the keyword status tooltip says:
"You may have included this keyword in your negative keyword list for this ad group. If your negative keywords overlap with your regular keywords, the negative keywords will block your regular keywords from showing your ad" !

So you may think that the searches should appear in the exact match ad group. There the keyword tooltip says "Showing ads right now? Yes". But I have only about 2 impressions a day (whole ad group).

So when I check the ad group with large match I only have about 10 impressions and the tooltip says "To prevent double-serving, only one ad per advertiser may appear on a given page per keyword." Well of course since there are the other ad groups with exact and phrase match.

When I check the keyword [travel to country] with the Ad diagnostic tool an ad from another ad group is shown using a different large match keyword 'package country'! (But this ad group as only a few impressions as well)

What makes it even more confusing are the other ad's which are not showing because of the above ad:
1) ad group 'package country' large match (same as above) because other ad's ranked higher
2) ad group 'travel to country' exact match because other ad is showing
3) ad group 'travel to country' large match because other ad is ranked higher
4) ad group 'travel to country' phrase match because negative keyword is preventing ad from showing

About 1): It seams another cheaper keyword is triggerd
About 2): Why the exact match is not shown?
About 3): ok, exact match would rank higher
About 4): Prove that the tooltip says the truth. The negative exact match prevents the phrase match from showing!

Actually I am using french words travel = voyager and package = circuit. I am very surprised that the broad 'circuit' is ranked higher than the exact [voyager].

It is against everything I know about Adword!

The country is a very touristical country. The campaign should have thousands of impressions.

Something seems wrong. Probably I should set up the whole campain again.

Nic

babushka




msg:4081660
 10:57 pm on Feb 16, 2010 (gmt 0)

In my case I guess it was my mistake. I thought Google Analytics would show the exact search query but does not. When I run the search query it shows that it was in the correct spot.

SEOPTI




msg:4083127
 9:08 pm on Feb 18, 2010 (gmt 0)

foxpyt, I'm seeing exactly the same problem.

GroovyDave




msg:4083144
 9:36 pm on Feb 18, 2010 (gmt 0)

Foxpyt, it is certainly OK to include an exact match negative in an adgroup with the same keyword as type phrase. It seems that the error message adwords is giving you is not accurate, or might be specifically addressing the case of when the query exactly matches the keyword.

That said, just because the phrase match keyword is eligible for matching a specific query doesn't mean it will display. There's always the potential your quality score on those queries is low and your ads are getting filtered. Increasing your bid and improving your adcreatives should result in more impressions, if that's possible to do.

Regarding broad keywords being chosen over exacts, the google help pages state that this only happens when the broad keyword bid is no greater than that of the exact, but the choice of the broad keyword results in a higher adrank.

SanDiego Art




msg:4083153
 9:51 pm on Feb 18, 2010 (gmt 0)

Even with correct -[negative] setup on a "phrase" adgroup, you will still see a small leak of [exact] match searches get served from the "phrase" adgroup.

I asked our agency rep about it about 18 months ago and was told it was an anomaly... True, 95%+ time it was working as intended, but still - AdWords should follow the rules it puts in place 100% of the time

GroovyDave




msg:4083161
 10:00 pm on Feb 18, 2010 (gmt 0)

I haven't seen that, but then I'm not a high budget advertiser by any means.

foxpyt




msg:4083165
 10:01 pm on Feb 18, 2010 (gmt 0)

@GroovyDave, thanks for the replay.
Thanks to confirm that it should be ok to add negativ -[exact match] to an "phrase" oriented ad group.

Concerning broad keyword being chosen over exact match because of better adrank => where can I check the adrank?

@SanDiego Art, thanks for the replay.
Yes I am aware that the google algorithms are rarely 100% accurate. But in my adword setup it seems the other way round: it does not work (for 99%) and because of some Google algorithm anomaly it works sometime (for 1%)

Nic

SEOPTI




msg:4083188
 10:46 pm on Feb 18, 2010 (gmt 0)

You can add or delete what you want but it is not clear if the phrased based keywords will receive any impressions at all if you see this message:

"You may have included this keyword in your negative keyword list for this ad group. If your negative keywords overlap with your regular keywords, the negative keywords will block your regular keywords from showing your ad".

I'm testing it right now.

foxpyt




msg:4083196
 10:56 pm on Feb 18, 2010 (gmt 0)

@SEOPTI
I wonder what you will find out. I cant touch my account atm until march.

SEOPTI




msg:4083312
 4:15 am on Feb 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

Okay, I've tested it and the ads will NOT get any impressions at all as soon as this message appears:

"You may have included this keyword in your negative keyword list for this ad group. If your negative keywords overlap with your regular keywords, the negative keywords will block your regular keywords from showing your ad".


I don't quite get it, it does not make sense. Of course it is necessary to include the negative keywords for exact match within the phrase match ad group. Seems to me like a BUG in their system.

GroovyDave




msg:4083518
 3:44 pm on Feb 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

SEOPTI, how exactly are you testing it?

It works for me, and many of the top adwords experts recommend it. Are your bids high enough?

SEOPTI




msg:4083604
 7:18 pm on Feb 19, 2010 (gmt 0)

This has nothing to do with bids, it's a simple bug in their system.

tommytx




msg:4083849
 9:02 am on Feb 20, 2010 (gmt 0)

quote 1 from above
*******************
It is most obvious when you check the search query performance report and you see the match type 'exact' in a phrase match only adgroup.

quote 2 from above
*******************
Oddly enough, all the clicks for [some phrase] are being shown in adgroup B. Google Analytics reports the search query was exactly [some phrase].

I know this is an old thread, but here is a NUGGET that may help both of you out...

As we know for example that when you make a phrase exact match [two headed dog] means it will not trigger unless the user type in exactly two headed dog.

Bottom line here is the shocker... none of those rules apply when you are looking at the Search Query....

When looking at the Search query for example when it says Exact match, it means that the user typed in an exact match to your keyword no matter how you have the keyword coded, broad, phrase or exact.

So for example if the user types in "red headed woodpecker" and you have a broad match keyphrase "red headed woodpecker" in the Search query it will say "EXACT MATCH" and it does not mean you have a keyphrase with the exact match blocks around it..
Again it means the user exactly matched one of your keyphrases.

Just to expound....say you have the following:
two headed dog (broad match)
"two headed dog" (phrase match)
[two headed dog] (exact match)

In search query report all three are an exact match if the user types in the keyphrase two headed dog...
And i swear i did not make this #*$! up.. if you don't believe me I can show you the reference at google.

So when reading the search query report forget the rules that you normally work with... hope that helps a lot of folks as I am sure a lot of folks have been scratching their head.

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