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why is the first page bid high when noone is bidding?
raumgleiter




msg:3820803
 7:17 am on Jan 7, 2009 (gmt 0)

What I am trying to figure out is this: If I bid on a keyword that has 1 (or no) other competitior bidding on it...... shouldnt it be possible to rank in second position (but on the first page) with a very minimal bid?

But I am still seeing the "your maximim CPC is below the first page minimum" notification in my adwords account... even when I put the maximum CPC on lets say 1 Dollar.

I basically thought, that if there is not many or just one other person bidding on a term it should be possible to show below that persons ad on the first page with the lowest possible bid. Or am I getting sth wrong here?

Thanks for any help on this.

 

Wlauzon




msg:3820872
 9:46 am on Jan 7, 2009 (gmt 0)

I have seen that once in a while also.

Just a couple days ago, a keyword that Google said was searched for something like 30 times a month, and showed zero for competition said it wanted $1.25 min bid for first page.

AdWordsAdvisor




msg:3821294
 7:16 pm on Jan 7, 2009 (gmt 0)

Hello raumgleiter, and welcome to WebmasterWorld!

The minimum first page bid estimate for a keyword is not highly related to how many (or how few) competitors an advertiser has for the keyword. Instead, minimum bid is more related to the Quality Score of the keyword as it is used in an individual advertiser's account.

As an aside, when you encounter keywords for which there are no (or very few) competitors, it does not necessarily mean that no one has thought of using that keyword and it is thus a great opportunity to advertise cheaply. In fact it often means that the advertisers who have used it in the past have found it difficult to keep it running affordably (due perhaps to a general lack of 'commercial intent' on the part of those searching on the keyword) and have decided to stop using it.

A bit more general information on this may be found on this page from the AdWords Help Center:

Why is my first page bid high if there are no ads showing?
[adwords.google.com...]

AWA

arieng




msg:3821352
 8:12 pm on Jan 7, 2009 (gmt 0)

Interesting. So the minimum bid hasn't really gone away, it is just wrapped up in this new calculation called the First Page Bid?

So in the situation where no ads are showing for a particular term and my bid is lower than the first page bid, would my ad show on the second page of results?

eWhisper




msg:3821385
 8:54 pm on Jan 7, 2009 (gmt 0)

The minimum first page bid estimate for a keyword is not highly related to how many (or how few) competitors an advertiser has for the keyword. Instead, minimum bid is more related to the Quality Score of the keyword as it is used in an individual advertiser's account.

Hmm... really?

I find that you can have a high first page bid with few advertisers due to low quality score.

However, I also see advertisers with QS of 8 and up with high first page bids in industries where there's a lot of competition with high bids.

Are you saying that if there are high first page bids, it's mostly QS?

AdWordsAdvisor




msg:3821573
 1:54 am on Jan 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

It has been quite some time since I have had the pleasure of responding to one of your posts, eWhisper! I hope all is well with you.

Gotta say, though, I think you may know more about AdWords than I do - so when you ask me about the nuances of Quality Score related issues I get a little anxious. :)

[...] Are you saying that if there are high first page bids, it's mostly QS?

Not really. To boil it down, (and given that this is a thread about minimum bid estimates for keywords for which there is no competition) I was trying to say that, when there is no competition for a particular search query, one should not automatically expect to show up with a very low CPC - because quality is still very much a part of the equation.

[...] However, I also see advertisers with QS of 8 and up with high first page bids in industries where there's a lot of competition with high bids.

Although it is an over-simplification of something more complex, the way I think of it is this:

At one end of the spectrum, when one has no competitors, first page bid estimates gives one an idea of what they'd have to set as a CPC in order to appear, given one's Quality Score for the keyword.

On the other end of the spectrum, when one has lots of high-bidding competition, first page bid estimates gives one an idea of what they'd need to bid in order to appear on the first page, taking into account one's Quality Score for the keyword and the level of competition.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some resources that come to mind, for those who would might like to take a deeper dive:

What is the first page bid estimate based on?
[adwords.google.com...]

Comprehensive FAQs for first page bid estimates:
[adwords.google.com...]

Is there a bid requirement to enter the ad auction?
[adwords.google.com...]

AWA

raumgleiter




msg:3821622
 4:10 am on Jan 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

thanks for all the answers. this really helped. What I didn't know that its actually possible that my ad on a keyword that has nearly no competition might still not show up on the first page if the bid is not high enough.

one more question that arieng mentioned above:
Is it ossible that an ad shows up on the second page (for example in the case that the bid is not high enough) even though on the first page there is only one (or no) ad?

eWhisper




msg:3821878
 1:56 pm on Jan 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

AWA - it's been a while. Hope all is well.

At one end of the spectrum, when one has no competitors, first page bid estimates gives one an idea of what they'd have to set as a CPC in order to appear, given one's Quality Score for the keyword.

On the other end of the spectrum, when one has lots of high-bidding competition, first page bid estimates gives one an idea of what they'd need to bid in order to appear on the first page, taking into account one's Quality Score for the keyword and the level of competition.

That's perfect. Sometimes I get so focused on numbers and formulas that you need to take a step back. Of course, First page bid is similar to min bid when there's no/little competition - that's quite logical.

Thanks :)

avalon37




msg:3821924
 2:43 pm on Jan 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

Google sets a minimum bid for every keyword in all B2C & B2B industries.
They'll charge what they think is fair market value for your keywords regardless of how many advertisers are bidding on it; translation, they won't sell you a click for 10 cents when they know it's worth 50 cents to you. Proof: I am the only one who bids on my company name (which is trademarked) and pay 35 cents a click. Why $.35? Well I don't have Google conversion tracking turned on because I certainly do not want them know HOW profitable my company name clicks are to me, but they are not stupid. All the have to do is have access to a competitor company in the same business vertical who has conversion tracking on to assign a value for what I should minimally be paying.

dpam




msg:3822104
 5:58 pm on Jan 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

It should probably be mentioned that these 'min first page bids' are not necessarily what you have to bid to get on the first page. Very many times we've seen bids below these numbers appear on the first page.

eWhisper




msg:3822109
 6:10 pm on Jan 8, 2009 (gmt 0)

I will say that I'm still getting clicks for $0.01 to $0.09. It's still possible. Just takes some work.

JoeT321




msg:3833765
 1:59 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

AWA, a quick question about this.

Let's say I have a brand new domain that has never been registered before by anyone, and never been used with Adwords. So this display URL has no CTR history at all with Adwords.

I add a keyword that doesn't have any advertisers on it, because it is basically a new trend keyword that will become more popular as time goes on. The ad has the exact keyword in the headline, and is relevant to the keyword. Landing page quality is OK.

Why would the keyword then receive an instant 4/10 Poor quality score and $2 minimum bids before there is any history?

Is this meant to be this way to "prove" the system that you're relevant and you have to pay for it since it's a new keyword?

Thanks in advance.

Essex_boy




msg:3833794
 3:21 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

I suspect the advert and keywordsetc arent that tightly grouped, poke around with the advert and see what happens, its a lot of work but immensly pleasing when you can get a $1.25 keyword down to 25c

JoeT321




msg:3833805
 3:31 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

essex: Were you replying to my post? The ad group/ad/keyword are as tight as possible. One ad group, one exact match keyword, one ad with the exact keyword in the headline, etc.

[edited by: JoeT321 at 3:31 pm (utc) on Jan. 24, 2009]

Essex_boy




msg:3833839
 5:01 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

That oddly enough can be a problem, ive found running adverts with 10 - 20 keywords can bring on a reduction cost.

Quality score drops to 5 from 7 and the price comes tumbling down. Strange but true.

JoeT321




msg:3833859
 6:04 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

Yea that's not really what I mean. I very rarely add multiple keywords to the same adgroup, and I shouldn't have to to get a single keywords quality score down. I just want to see if this is a bug or how they intend this to be.

koncept




msg:3833881
 7:16 pm on Jan 24, 2009 (gmt 0)

It should probably be mentioned that these 'min first page bids' are not necessarily what you have to bid to get on the first page. Very many times we've seen bids below these numbers appear on the first page.

I have also experienced this. If the 'min first page bid' they suggest is too high for a positive roi I just keep it running with my lower bid and often it keeps showing just fine, but perhaps less than it might at the suggested min. And yes, it is showing on the first page, usually in position 3 or better.

Essex_boy




msg:3834164
 9:52 am on Jan 25, 2009 (gmt 0)

shouldn't have to to get a single keywords quality score down - Well im sorry to say Google wont bend to what you think it should do.

You have to play the game.

JoeT321




msg:3834166
 10:13 am on Jan 25, 2009 (gmt 0)

Ok how about this then:

Adding multiple keywords in one adgroup has no effect on another keywords quality score in that same adgroup in the case I'm talking about. You don't know what you're talking about.

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