homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.196.168.78
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Become a Pro Member

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google AdWords
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: buckworks & eWhisper & skibum

Google AdWords Forum

This 82 message thread spans 3 pages: 82 ( [1] 2 3 > >     
Why Did G Charge Me Over Min Bid When I'm the Only Advertiser?
bigdealioo




msg:3235097
 9:14 pm on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Situation: I'm advertising only in Search and I'm the only advertiser for the keyword. G charges me CPC which is higher than the Min Bid. My question is: WHY?

Anyone is welcome to answer.

 

Pengi




msg:3235105
 9:26 pm on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Thanks. But no thanks.

jim2003




msg:3235142
 10:12 pm on Jan 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

There are several possibilities. The most likely one is that in geographies other than where you are located there is more than one bidder. Another possibility is that while yours is the only ad appearing that in reality there are several other bidders whose ads are not appearing for quality score reasons. But the effect of those bids MAY be effecting the price you are paying.

Kobayashi




msg:3235345
 2:08 am on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

When you say only in search are you talking about only on google.com or have you also opted into their search network? Also are you advertising a unique domain such as your own or a domain in which other advertisers/affiiliates may be trying to bid on?

bigdealioo




msg:3235514
 8:52 am on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

Thanks for the ideas, guys. But none of these should matter.

"The most likely one is that in geographies other than where you are located there is more than one bidder." ADS IN OTHER LOCALES SHOULD NOT EFFECT MY PRICING.

"Another possibility is that while yours is the only ad appearing that in reality there are several other bidders whose ads are not appearing for quality score reasons. But the effect of those bids MAY be effecting the price you are paying."
INACTIVE ADS SHOULD NOT EFFECT MY PRICING.

"When you say only in search are you talking about only on google.com or have you also opted into their search network? Also are you advertising a unique domain such as your own or a domain in which other advertisers/affiiliates may be trying to bid on?"

GOOGLE.COM + SEARCH NETWORK. WHETHER IT'S A UNIQUE DOMAIN OR NOT SHOULD NOT MATTER. IF IM BIDDING $5 TO USE ABC.COM AS DISPLAY URL AND THERE'S ALSO PEOPLE BIDDING $1 AND $3 ON IT BUT ONLY I AM BEING ACTUALLY SHOWN.. - THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY IMPACT ON MY ACTUAL CPC. THE ONLY SIGNIFICANCE OF THOSE BIDS IS TO FIGURE OUT WHICH AD HAS THE HIGHEST ADRANK AND WILL BE SHOWN.

mike_ppc




msg:3235549
 9:38 am on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

I hope you are talking about an exact match keyword. If not, the situation is different.. And second, some keywords could have a min bid bigger than usual (5c).

beesticles




msg:3235563
 9:51 am on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

What average position do you achieve? If it's lower than 1.0, then there's some other advertisers out there that you're competing with.

Jim2003 makes valid points. Even if you don't think that these factors should affect your CPC, they do.

Pengi




msg:3235569
 10:01 am on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

So you choose to disagree with all the answers you're given. One wonders why you bother asking the question!

OK we give up, what is the "right" answer then?

{And please do not SHOUT}

sem4u




msg:3235595
 10:39 am on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

Some keywords just have higher minimum bids. I wanted to bid on the name of a musician and Google wanted a minimum bid of 0.50. This was far to high for me so I just don't use Google for those keywords.

poster_boy




msg:3236025
 5:17 pm on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

Some keywords just have higher minimum bids.

The OP is saying that he's the only bidder, yet he's paying over the minimum bid.

Bigdealioo, do your stats confirm that you're in position "1.0"?

sem4u




msg:3236031
 5:22 pm on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

bigdealioo - if you go to edit your bids what is the minimum that it is saying?

bigdealioo




msg:3236073
 5:42 pm on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

I hope you are talking about an exact match keyword. If not, the situation is different.. And second, some keywords could have a min bid bigger than usual (5c).
YES, EXACT MATCH. HOW HIGH THE MIN BID IS - IS NOT THE ISSUE (I'M BIDDING ENOUGH TO COVER IT). WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IS NOT THE MIN BID - BUT BEING CHARGED ABOVE IT WHEN THERE'S NO OTHER ADVERTISERS.

What average position do you achieve? If it's lower than 1.0, then there's some other advertisers out there that you're competing with.
Jim2003 makes valid points. Even if you don't think that these factors should affect your CPC, they do.

1.0 AND THE FACTORS MENTIONED UP TO NOW SHOULD *NOT* AFFECT MY CPC.. AND IF THEY DO.. THEN IT'S A PROBLEM.

Some keywords just have higher minimum bids. I wanted to bid on the name of a musician and Google wanted a minimum bid of 0.50. This was far to high for me so I just don't use Google for those keywords.

AGAIN.. HOW HIGH OR LOW THE MIN BID IS NOT THE ISSUE. I'M FINE WITH THE MIN BID. I'M NOT FINE WITH PAYING *OVER* THE MIN BID WHEN THERE'S NO OTHER ADVERTISERS.

The OP is saying that he's the only bidder, yet he's paying over the minimum bid.
CORRECT!

Bigdealioo, do your stats confirm that you're in position "1.0"?
YES.

bigdealioo - if you go to edit your bids what is the minimum that it is saying?
LIKE I TRIED TO EXPLAIN ABOVE.. THE MIN BID IS NOT THE ISSUE AND ITS SPECIFIC VALUE IS IRRELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION.

Pengi




msg:3236118
 6:01 pm on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

How is it possible to determine that there is only one bidder for a keyword?

If you do a search, you only see the results from where you are and at the time you search. You do not see the results for other searches that include the keyword.

Being at position #1.0 just indicates you are the top bidder not the only bidder. And even then, 1.0 may really be an average of 1.04 say.

If you actually bid the indicated minimum bid, where are you positioned then? If it's still #1 then bid that. If it's not #1 then you are not the only bidder.

If there really is no one else bidding on a keyword, then Google will not have enough data on which to determine the minumum bid - hence the situation will change as you start to obtain impressions and clicks.

Kobayashi




msg:3236125
 6:02 pm on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

If there are no other advertisers for different domains but another advertiser has a max CPC alot lower than yours for the same domain in a campaign set to show on google.com only, that would explain why you will only see your ad on google.com and you probably would only be getting charged the minimum CPC for those clicks. If the same advertiser also has an ad in another campaign for the same keyword but a different domain set to google.com + search network with a max CPC lower than the max CPC for the same keyword in the first campaign (so it would not show on google.com) but higher than your minimum bid and lower than your max CPC it could be bumping your CPC on the search network clicks above your minimum CPC thus causing your overall average CPC to increase. I ask if you are advertising a unique domain as if you are the simple solution is to simply set your max CPC to your minimum bid. If you are not, you could find out if the above is the cause by opting out of the search network for a day to see if your average CPC goes down.

[edited by: Kobayashi at 6:36 pm (utc) on Jan. 29, 2007]

poster_boy




msg:3236384
 9:12 pm on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

...the simple solution is to simply set your max CPC to your minimum bid..

I would agree with this.

But, I think the OP is questioning this in regards to how it relates to Google's public stance on how this pricing should work. If there is truly only one advertiser for a keyword, theory would say you should pay the minimum bid no matter the max bid... but, in actuality, I've found that a higher Max CPC oftentimes will equal a higher Actual CPC even if there are no other competitive factors.

Should it happen this way? Probably not. But, since it does... you should strive to bid the lowest amount possible to maintain your position - in this case, the Min bid.

Kobayashi




msg:3236417
 9:46 pm on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

Part of resolving this is to eliminate as many possible causes as you can. I would start by temporarily opting out of the search network since there is no way to know if/where your and/or other ads are appearing that are affecting your overall average CPC for search. If your average CPC comes down to your minimum bid you will know the problem existed on the search network. If that is not the cause, make sure your campaign is only targetting a geographic location(s) in which you are running test searches in to see if you are truly the only advertiser.

AdWordsAdvisor2




msg:3236498
 10:36 pm on Jan 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

I think Pengi is probably the winner on this one:

Being at position #1.0 just indicates you are the top bidder not the only bidder. And even then, 1.0 may really be an average of 1.04 say.

with a healthy helping from jim2003:

The most likely one is that in geographies other than where you are located there is more than one bidder.

Unless you're targeting only your local area and are viewing every impression, you're probably not the only one showing. It's a big ocean.

If you want to send me the account ID and the keyword, I can provide the final answer.

AWA2

DamonHD




msg:3236922
 9:12 am on Jan 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

Hi AWA2,

I think you and Pengi have it of course, but if I may put it another way, easy to forget when obsessing about AW/AS:

"It's not all about you!"

Rgds

Damon

[edited by: DamonHD at 9:13 am (utc) on Jan. 30, 2007]

bigdealioo




msg:3236988
 10:36 am on Jan 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

But, I think the OP is questioning this in regards to how it relates to Google's public stance on how this pricing should work. If there is truly only one advertiser for a keyword, theory would say you should pay the minimum bid no matter the max bid... but, in actuality, I've found that a higher Max CPC oftentimes will equal a higher Actual CPC even if there are no other competitive factors.

CORRECT!

Part of resolving this is to eliminate as many possible causes as you can.

LET'S STOP THE GUESSING ON THIS DETAIL. G SUPPORT CONFIRMED THAT THERE'S NO OTHER ADVERTISERS FOR THIS KEYWORD.

I think Pengi is probably the winner on this one:
Being at position #1.0 just indicates you are the top bidder not the only bidder. And even then, 1.0 may really be an average of 1.04 say. with a healthy helping from jim2003:

The most likely one is that in geographies other than where you are located there is more than one bidder. Unless you're targeting only your local area and are viewing every impression, you're probably not the only one showing. It's a big ocean.

If you want to send me the account ID and the keyword, I can provide the final answer.

G SUPPORT HAS CONFIRMED TO ME THAT I'M THE ONLY ADVERTISER ON THIS KEYWORD. AWA2, I WOULD NOT LIKE TO PROVIDE MY ACCOUNT ID TO YOU. I WOULD RATHER HAVE YOU CONFIRM *IN PRINCIPLE* THAT IN THE SITUATION WHERE THERE ARE NO OTHER ADVERTISERS BIDDING ON THE KEYWORD, THE LONE ADVERTISER SHOULD BE PAYING HIS MIN BID AS LONG AS HIS MAX BID EXCEEDS IT. ONCE YOU CONFIRM THAT, WE CAN GO FROM THERE.

mike_ppc




msg:3237008
 11:13 am on Jan 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

For that exact match you could be alone. But why wouldn't it be possible :
1. that there is another advertiser that has a small budget; his ads appear only a couple of hours, and an expanded match of a broadmatched term is competing against your kw.
2. in a geo area there is a competitor for your keyword based on an expanded match (more likely, in my opinion).
If you decrease your bid to minimum, and still have 1.0 pos, that would be fine... if not, you will see that there is competition....
And, please, respect Adwords guidelines and don't use excessive capitalization :)

Pengi




msg:3237043
 12:04 pm on Jan 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

An Advertiser does not have a "minimum bid". An advertiser only has a "maximum bid".

Google will determine a "minimum bid" that they require for the keyword - this will depend on many factors including the bidder's Quality Score, the competition and the amount of search traffic for the keyword concerned - possibly including content traffic relating to the keyword.

If there are no other bidders for the keyword, it is highly likely that there will be little search traffic or historical data on which Google's algorithms can operate to determine the appropriate "minimum bid" - it will probably be unreliable and unstable.

Under these conditions I would expect you to pay what you bid. If there are other bidders, or if there is significant traffic then there may be sufficient data to allow Google to reduce what you actually pay.

It would be nice to show a little appreciation to those (including AWA2) who have responded to your question.

Kobayashi




msg:3237823
 1:29 am on Jan 31, 2007 (gmt 0)

Did Google support tell you that you were the only advertiser on google.com and the search network for that keyword only at the time they checked it for you or during the entire time period you were charged more than the minimum bid?

AdWordsAdvisor2




msg:3238932
 11:04 pm on Jan 31, 2007 (gmt 0)

If you're the only ad eligible for display, you will pay your minimum CPC.

If there are other ads below you, you'll often pay more than your minimum CPC and there's no way for you to know whether you are always the only ad eligible for display. AdWords support was mistaken if they told you differently. Each ad appears in many different auctions, at different times of day in different geographies.

Side note, Pengi ... the number of advertisers on a term will not effect the Quality Score for your keyword, and neither will its behavior on the content network (which has its own QS). The minimum CPC should be stable in that it won't jump around from auction to auction. It will change as the data becomes available to re-evaluate the QS for the keyword term, but not in a 'random' fashion.

AWA2

Pengi




msg:3239214
 7:52 am on Feb 1, 2007 (gmt 0)

AWA2: Thanks for the correction.
P

bigdealioo




msg:3239303
 10:48 am on Feb 1, 2007 (gmt 0)

OK, AWA2, thank you for confirming that my understanding of how the pricing *should* be is correct. The bad news is that in reality I was being charged more than the Min Bid.

So I'll have to bring this up to a G rep who has enough clue and integrity not to explain everything away by "well, you know, it's a dynamic marketplace, so if we overcharge you, it's just because it's so dynamic, you see..? ok? thanks, bye."

limoshawn




msg:3239455
 2:46 pm on Feb 1, 2007 (gmt 0)

I think that the key here is
only ad eligible for display

just because G support told you that you are the only advertiser biding on "yellow green uptown affiliate widgets" does not mean that your ad will be the only ad "eligible for display". Someone biding on the keyword "widgets" with broad match turned on could also be eligible for display on the same query.

Pengi




msg:3239697
 6:08 pm on Feb 1, 2007 (gmt 0)

You appear to have missed, misread, misunderstood or ignored this:

If there are other ads below you, you'll often pay more than your minimum CPC and there's no way for you to know whether you are always the only ad eligible for display. AdWords support was mistaken if they told you differently. Each ad appears in many different auctions, at different times of day in different geographies.

[edited by: Pengi at 6:44 pm (utc) on Feb. 1, 2007]

DamonHD




msg:3240055
 10:03 pm on Feb 1, 2007 (gmt 0)

Let's not let facts get in the way of this thread... If something isn't convenient then it isn't true, OK?

Pengi




msg:3240121
 10:49 pm on Feb 1, 2007 (gmt 0)

Sorry Damon - I forgot.

bigdealioo




msg:3240499
 10:38 am on Feb 2, 2007 (gmt 0)

There is a way to check how many ads were "eligible for display" ie. showing for a given period of time for a certain keyword. G is able to do that. Don't think that Adwords is rocket science.. they try to make you think it is to make their general denial of disclosure seem more reasonable.

The logic of all posters here has been similar... "OK this guy is saying basically that G charges him more than they should. But wait.. that cannot be since G is the 13th apostle and is holy. So there must be something wrong with this guy's facts. Let's see... we can come up with 12 random reasons for why he might not be the only advertiser for that keyword!"

The thing is that it *IS* possible for G to tell how many advertisers were showing for a given keyword for a given period of time. If they tell you otherwise they're lying. I had them do exactly that - they checked for the period that I requested and got back to me and said that - yes, I was the only one showing - and it wasn't the G rep who made that determination - they forwarded it to Technical Department who confirmed it.

So don't tell me black is white. I was being overcharged and I intend to get to the bottom of this.

This 82 message thread spans 3 pages: 82 ( [1] 2 3 > >
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google AdWords
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved