homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.211.113.223
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Become a Pro Member

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google AdWords
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: buckworks & eWhisper & skibum

Google AdWords Forum

    
Got some good keywords?
Hiccup

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 5:57 am on Nov 21, 2006 (gmt 0)

Turn off conversion tracking and don't touch analytics with a ten foot pole.

I've done a 3 month experiment and if they know something is converting, it will go up in price.

I wonder what would happen if everyone stopped using their conversion tracking and tracked things outside of adwords...?

 

AdWordsAdvisor

WebmasterWorld Senior Member adwordsadvisor us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 6:42 pm on Nov 21, 2006 (gmt 0)

Because of persistant rumors and conjecture along these lines, I'd like to clarify that information from Google's conversion tracking and Google Analytics is not used in the calculation of ones minimum bid, nor otherwise incorporated in the calculation of CPC.

AWA

<edit> fixed signature! </edit>

[edited by: AdWordsAdvisor at 6:43 pm (utc) on Nov. 21, 2006]

senlogan

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 8:36 pm on Nov 21, 2006 (gmt 0)

AWA,
Thanks for the post.

Is the conversion tracking data /analytics used to determine the smart pricing of publishers adsense revenue?

Hiccup

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 11:39 pm on Nov 21, 2006 (gmt 0)

Because of persistant rumors and conjecture along these lines, I'd like to clarify that information from Google's conversion tracking and Google Analytics is not used in the calculation of ones minimum bid, nor otherwise incorporated in the calculation of CPC.

That's nice AWA, but my numbers PROVE different. I will never use it and suggest everyone else not touch it. I am not starting rumours and it is not conjecture, it is based on scientific testing and a statistically significant sample. I appreciate you have to tow the company line and would expect nothing less from you...

:)

La_Valette

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 12:26 pm on Nov 22, 2006 (gmt 0)

Even if analytics/conversion data isn't intentionally integrated by Google into CPC calculation as AWA says (I believe him, by the way), might it not be possible for individual Google employees to just open up competing personal adwords accounts when they notice that certain keywords are doing well? Access to this rather sensitive data seems like an easy privilege to abuse, IMHO. Of course, such competing accounts would then drive up bid prices. Maybe good for Google in the short term, but not in the long term if confidence in the integrity of the whole setup is shaken.

[edited by: La_Valette at 12:27 pm (utc) on Nov. 22, 2006]

ronmcd

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 3:06 pm on Nov 22, 2006 (gmt 0)

It probably isnt used directly. in calculating minimum bids.....

...BUT it will likely be used as one component in calculating a "quality" score, ie google now knows certain types of sites dont sell products just recycle clicks, certain markets and keywords dont have good advertisers, certain markets and keywords have lots of high paying advertisers, etc etc, and this will all feed into so called "quality" calculations.

So the upshot is google conversion and analytics info (along with other data, keyword history etc) has been used to change adwords from what it was before into what it is now. In a roundabout way, this data will have increased bids for many (most?) people.

It's just not credible that google DONT use this data to improve or at least change the adwords system over time.

Edge

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 1:45 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

Hummm, I think converting keywords would eventually be discovered by competitors, it's a big world out there. The competition raising thier bid is another explanation for rising minimum bids.

ember

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 3:06 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

I completely agree with Hiccup. If you have keywords that are converting well, and particularly if they are cheap, and AdWords finds out, they will jack up your price.

La_Valette

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 4:29 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

I don't think there's a google-wide conspiracy, appealing as that theory might sometimes seem. Individual employee abuses seem much more possible to me.

rbacal



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 4:56 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

I completely agree with Hiccup. If you have keywords that are converting well, and particularly if they are cheap, and AdWords finds out, they will jack up your price

If you guys are going to suggest that a google representative is being dishonest publicly, then I think I want to see your data in detail. I'd also suggest that webmasterworld as a whole take a good long look at the wisdom of allowing these kinds of unsubstantiated accusations.

PARTICULARLY when webmasterworld allows ANONYMOUS unsubstantiated (and therefore cowardly) accusations.

ember

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 5:41 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

Just speaking from experience, Rbacal. I think we are allowed to do that. I think you work for Google, anyway.

ronmcd

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 5:53 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

If you guys are going to suggest that a google representative is being dishonest publicly..

I don't doubt AWA is telling the truth - min cpc isnt directly linked to conversion stats, not a direct relationship. MY point is its influenced by all the data google gathers, used as a whole to decide the new hidden ranking and pricing policies. For many this means an increase.

And disagreeing with someone does not mean you accuse them of dishonesty. Its also possible the evidence shows one thing, and a representative has been told something else. How many times have you discussed something with a company employee knowing you were right and they were wrong? Im not saying thats the case here, I believe what AWA is saying, but companies dont always tell their employees everything. People are entitled to voice their opinions.

rbacal



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 7:14 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

People are entitled to voice their opinions.

Er...not if they state potentially slanderous and libelous speculations as FACTS.

At minimum, if someone is going to make accusations claiming fact, and PROOF, let's see the proof. I don't know about you but I don't much respect people who make accusations, offer no proof, and remain anonymous.

The irony is that most people want google to be more forthcoming and open and communicative, yet when they do so, are they greeted with a measure of respect and hospitality?

davewray

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 9:24 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

Rbacal....Curious...How long have YOU been working for Google? It's clearly obvious. Anything you don't agree with, you use threats as a counter. How dare someone criticize the Big Godly Google? As though we aren't allowed to speak such evil things. Your responses are ridiculous at best, and that's pushing it.

sem4u

WebmasterWorld Senior Member sem4u us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 9:38 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

I have been using AdWords since it was introduced. I also use conversion tracking from Google. Some conversion rates have improved over the years, some have declined. I put that down to competition, changes to keywords, ads, the sites...etc...

I have never been subjected to sky high bids for keywords either. Maybe I am doing things right or just lucky? :)

jtara

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jtara us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 10:00 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

PARTICULARLY when webmasterworld allows ANONYMOUS unsubstantiated (and therefore cowardly) accusations.

Actually, the problem is the converse.

WebmasterWorld *doesn't* allow the posting of the details that would coroborate this.

Interested parties could still sticky hiccup, though. I dunno if it would be a violation of WebmasterWorld policy, but perhaps hiccup could indicate if he has published the results of his experiment, so that interested persons could contact him for a link, e-mailed copy, etc.?

----
I note how carefully AWA's response is written. He states that the stats are not used to calculate "one's" minimum bids. He doesn't deny that they are used to influence *everyone's* minimum bids, and doesn't deny that aggregate statistics are used.

The Google Analytics Terms of Service references the general Google Privacy Policy. Although there are specifics for some services linked from the general Privacy Policy, there are no specifics given for Google Analytics. Thus, the general Privacy Policy applies.

The following two provisions are quite broad:

# We may also use personal information for auditing, research and analysis to operate and improve Google technologies and services.

# We may share aggregated non-personal information with third parties outside of Google.

I believe the first provision could give Google the right to use data mined from Analytics to determine minimum bids for keywords.

The second provision would seem to give Google the right to provide Analytics data (in aggregate) with favored bidders, sell it as market data, etc.

Whether or not they DO this, nobody knows. But a read of their Privacy Policy suggests that they have the right to do so, and even if they are not doing so now, they could at at any time.

I join hiccup in urging others to avoid using Google Analytics, and do your analytics on the outside - preferably on your own server. Do not share your analytics data with ANYBODY. To do so is foolish.

This is something that webmasters have to stick together on to have any effect - because the danger in making this data available to others is not so much that the detail data will be used against you, but that the aggregate data will be used against you. Perhaps it is a losing battle, but webmasters must be convinced that it is a bad idea to share your analytics data.

IMO, the willingness of companies and individuals to give up information that seemingly does no harm to themselves (but, in fact, can and does) is *central* to Google's company philosophy.

While this is purely speculation on my part, I believe that Google is planning some major and stunning initiatives along the lines of free Internet service, free backbone transport, perhaps going as far as free "cable over IP", telephone service, etc. It will turn many industries on their heads, and consumers will willingly give-up data that seems so intagible but is so valuable to Google that it can rationalize providing services for free. Google is positioning itself at every turn to collect and aggregate information about consumer interests, choices, and habits, in order to form an "information monopoly".

While we can hope that Google truly is driven by their highly-visible philosophy of "Don't be evil", let's pray that they don't get away with their thinly-hidden philosophy: "All your stats are belong to us".

[edited by: jtara at 10:23 pm (utc) on Nov. 23, 2006]

rbacal



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 10:18 pm on Nov 23, 2006 (gmt 0)

Actually, the problem is the converse.

WebmasterWorld *doesn't* allow the posting of the details that would coroborate this.

OK. So here's what it comes down to. Webmasterworld allows unsubstantiated accusations and claims made anonymously?

I wouldn't have thought that would be the case, given slander and libel laws, and webmasterworld's reputation as the premier forum for webmasters.

It's one thing to state an opinion, or speculate. It's another to make purported factual statement that in effect, finger anyone -- google employee or not as being dishonest, or not knowledgeable.

It's passing strange that if I wrote a post similar, saying [member name] is a spam and scam artist, not only would I receive a justifiable chiding email, but the post would be deleted.

There's other webmaster forums that have descended into a whole lot of unethical posting and behavior, and flat out bad information. I hope webmasterworld doesn't join them.

ronmcd

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 12:06 am on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

rbacal, you are the only one who thinks this discussion is in some way libelous or insulting.

Frankly, in my opinion google would be crazy and negligent to their shareholders if they DIDNT try and use the stats and data they collect to help their business. Some people think they use it directly, I think they use it indirectly in a more subtle way, but its a fair point for discussion.

You are trying to make this more contentious than it is, presumably to prevent discussion. Why?

plumsauce

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 12:48 am on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)


As in the protection of any information,

the best way to ensure that it is not abused by a party is not to share it with that party.

That's my standard reply to retailers who tell me how good their privacy protection mechanisms are.

Hiccup

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 7:06 am on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

Yeah I'll post my stats, want the login to my adwords account? Want me to list all my sites? Want me to give you all my conversion data for the past three months, including the exact keywords that are very profitable? Want the pin code to my bank account? How about the keys to my car and house?

Hmmm let me think about that now...how about NO.

All you require is the knowledge that someone has tested this and made observations based on the results. I know there are other factors and I tried to isolate them as best I could in my experiments. I have done my testing, reviewed my results and stated the outcome. I have no problem with anyone disputing my claims but at least do some testing first.

idolw

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 9:13 am on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

i thought AWA works for google inc. and does not hide it.
thus, i cannot imagine any google employee would allow themselves to lie in a public forum.

ember

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 2:20 pm on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

For anything here about Google to be libelous it would have to be false information and written with a blatant disregard for the truth. Writing about one's experience with Google is not defamatory since it is truthful, and since we simple mortals are not allowed to know Google's secret formulas for determining QS, minimum bids, etc., we can't write with a blatant disregard for the truth because Google will not tell us what that is.

andye

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 2:56 pm on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)


Because of persistant rumors and conjecture along these lines, I'd like to clarify that information from Google's conversion tracking and Google Analytics is not used in the calculation of ones minimum bid, nor otherwise incorporated in the calculation of CPC.

AWA, we've been advertising with Adwords for over 4 years now (since August 02). I've been running our Adwords campaign for all of that time, during which time we've spent a six-figure sum in US dollars (I know that doesn't make us a big Adwords advertiser, but we're not one of the smallest either). We've had no specific problem with our account. (I'm just making clear that I don't have an axe to grind here).

When we first joined Adwords it was a refreshing change from Overture - easier to use, better pricing, position based on bid x CTR. Fine.

Unfortunately things have got worse in the intervening years, and my first reaction to reading your statement quoted above was to wonder whether it was true. I'm not saying that I don't believe you - just letting you know that Adwords's reputation among advertisers has slipped to the point where my automatic reaction to any communication from G is to doubt whether I should take it at face value.

The key problems that we've had with communications from Adwords are that:

- The way that Adwords works has got more and more obscure over the years. It's now very hard for us to tell which changes on our account will bring more visitors to our site, and which changes will just put more money in Google's pocket.

- Google as a company is obscure and secretive in its relationship with us. Every change is presented as being for our benefit; in the long term it usually turns out that it hurts us.

- Because the workings of the system are kept so obscure, it's easy to suspect foul play where there may in fact be none. For example, having used the Adwords online interface for a few years now, I get the distinct impression that it's assessing my willingness to pay and pricing ads on the basis of that. It's certainly the case that different customers get different prices for the same 'product', and it seems that higher-spending customers get charged higher prices. Of course this could be completely false, but since the basis of Adwords pricing is now entirely obscure to me, how would I know?

Just wanted to let you know that, as a long time customer, my trust in Google has really slipped away, from a high starting point to the situation now where I feel I can't trust you guys.

In the long term it's up to Google to win back that trust; right now we advertise with you because you have us over a barrel (one of only a few games in town), but that won't always be the case.

Best wishes, a.

edited: grammar corrected

Leosghost

WebmasterWorld Senior Member leosghost us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 3:29 pm on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

At minimum, if someone is going to make accusations claiming fact, and PROOF, let's see the proof. I don't know about you but I don't much respect people who make accusations, offer no proof, and remain anonymous.

last time I personally suggested to you that as you kept quoting things that you said you had seen in googles help pages relating to quality scores ..and that you were inferring that others were too stupid to find these pages ..and I suggested that your "cred" would be better if you just linked to theses pages to prove that they existed ..you replied that you had better things to do ..weren't interested in what your "cred" was here ..

and that you were going to cease posting in WebmasterWorld ..

( that lasted about 30 hours :)

now you are becoming hysterical ..

AWA is big enough to look after his / her / themselves ..

holyearth

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 3:45 pm on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

If you use conversion tracking and G sees you making BIG bucks, of course they are going to charge you more.

Who wouldn't?

Just turn the crap off. Now worry about this ridiculous piece of crap called QS.

limoshawn

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 4:12 pm on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

google representative is being dishonest publicly

Google character reference:

On November 7th, 2006 Eric Schmidt, Google CEO, stated publicly that the rumors of Google withholding a "large sum of money" from the purchase of YouTube to settle potential law suits were "not true".

On November 13th, 2006 Google released a public statement acknowledging that, in fact, $224 Million had been withheld from the transaction and placed into an escrow account to "secure certain indemnification obligations."

I can't wait till I can say: $224 Million... no, thatís not a large sum of money.

jtara

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jtara us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 5:06 pm on Nov 24, 2006 (gmt 0)

Yeah I'll post my stats, want the login to my adwords account? Want me to list all my sites? Want me to give you all my conversion data for the past three months, including the exact keywords that are very profitable? Want the pin code to my bank account? How about the keys to my car and house?

Hmmm let me think about that now...how about NO

I'm not suggesting posting proprietary details, such as the exact keywords that are very profitable.

How about: test methodology, length of test, number of ads and keywords, steps you took to isolate other factors, price difference between the two groups, statistical tests performed, confidence factor, etc.

Now, I can understand why you might not want to take the time or trouble to publish them. It's not your job to save the world from Google. If this is too much, how about a blog with some of the details you're prevented by WebmasterWorld policy from posting here? No? OK, thanks for letting us know. You'll have to understand that many are going to to be skeptical. Including myself who you may note has posted very supportively of your viewpoint.

-----------
I don't understand why so many do use Google Analytics. There are plenty of alternatives, and GA isn't even considered "best of breed". It's just a lazy webmaster's default. Considering the *potential* for abuse, why use it?

finish_last

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 3:07 pm on Nov 27, 2006 (gmt 0)

Let's look at the facts, google is effectively the world's largest advertising company.
In their Terms they state as much, that they will use the data they collect to 'improve' their service (read: revenue stream).

As a company they are 'obligated' to act in order to increase their revenue and generate profit growth.
As a company that owns the statistics of a million+ websites, the question to ask is;

Why wouldn't they use the analytics and conversion data to increase their advertising revenue stream?

davewray

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 5:08 am on Nov 30, 2006 (gmt 0)

Google HAS to increase their revenue stream...over time...and continuously. If they do not, their shares will tank and they will thus lose market value. Shareholders will have nothing of that. Google's loyalties come in this order: Shareholders, Users, Adsense Publishers...and lastly, Advertisers. Google has nearly a veritable monopoly on the PPC landscape. To a certain extent, it can and will do what it wants because it knows folks have limited choices of where they will spend their advertising bucks (assuming they are interested in high volume). To think that any changes Google makes are honorable to the advertiser is just ludacris. Because Adwords is one of Google's only revenue streams (the biggest one), they will continuously try and make changes to eek out more and more advertising revenue from the same number of clicks...read: Raising minimum bid prices (I mean, QS).

Google is NOT your friend.

Solution to analytics conspiracy theory (Even I think there's some basis of truth to it). Collect a few month's worth of conversion data. If you have enough volume, a few months is all you will need to make informed decisions about which keywords will, or will not convert. Then, completely remove conversion code. Or, as many have suggested above, use third party solutions that Google has no privy to.

Some more of my many thoughts....

Dave.

jtara

WebmasterWorld Senior Member jtara us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3163417 posted 7:19 am on Nov 30, 2006 (gmt 0)

There is only one reason to use Google analytics: laziness.

Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google AdWords
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved