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Can you get EFT into relative's bank account?
ChanandlerBong




msg:4558605
 2:50 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

That's it really, just want to know if you could put a parent's or sibling's bank account or does the bank account name have to match the Adsense account name?

 

netmeg




msg:4558634
 4:17 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

I expect that if they make the test deposit and you answer the question correctly, it doesn't matter.

But ask support.

Leosghost




msg:4558640
 4:26 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

If they do..don't forget that they will probably also notify the taxation authorities ( eventually )..and your relative will have to pay tax on this income..

If they were here ( France ) they would also have other associated charges ( no matter what the levels of earnings were ) and would also have to register as a business..similar restrictions etc, may apply in your parent or sibling's jurisdiction..

matrix_jan




msg:4558645
 4:37 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

In payment settings click add new bank account, it asks for a name and bank account numbers. Since the name is not locked, I assume you can add whomever you like (country should be the same though). Just try.

matrix_jan




msg:4558648
 4:50 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

@Leosghost

So for French accounts adsense asks to enter tax info? I thought they collect tax info only from US accounts. Mine is also registered in Europe and in tax info section it says "Google does not require tax information for this AdSense account".

hal12b




msg:4558649
 4:52 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

I concur with Netmeg, but I don't think what Leosghost mentioned is correct. If you initially sign up with your social security or your business tax info, that's who will get taxed at the end of the year.

ChanandlerBong




msg:4558675
 6:07 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

The reason I ask is that Google is going ahead with the change they announced back in the autumn...stopping cheque payment to all AdSensers living in countries that offer EFT. I'm currently on t'other side of the world and won't be able to switch country to UK till the autumn, so I just need something temporarily. I don't think there are tax problems for non-US residents, basically it's up to us to sort that out, Google is not a nanny in that respect (thankfully!)

So, yes, my idea was to just put my brother's account for few months, nothing more. He has account in my adsense country, I don't.

Leosghost




msg:4558679
 6:13 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

For a French resident ( no matter what their country of origin ) to run adsense , under French law they must be registered as a business in France..at end of the tax year the monies gained from adsense and elsewhere must be declared to the French tax authorities..

A non business person here must also declare any revenues they have had from whatever source ( arriving in their bank account from Google ..or whoever..on behalf of someone else ..is included in what is required to be declared )..failure to do so accurately is a criminal offence..

If your parent or sibling received say 10,000.oo in their bank account , not only would they have to pay tax upon it..but also they would be prosecuted for what would be called in English undeclared working..and failure to declare income for tax and social contributions..

I have spent many hundreds of hours writing letters to the French tax authorities, and many hundreds of Euros in phone calls to them..( on behalf of non French citizens who are resident here*, and who have fallen foul of French legislation..in particular with regards to adsense payments received in bank accounts other than their own or in non French bank accounts )..
When the tax and social security authorities here do "catch up"..they can ( and do ) seize bank accounts, houses, property, cars etc ..and impose fines..

Unfortunately many non French who are resident here are "advised" by what appear to be reputable businesses dealing with expats..these supposed experts get it all wrong, and others like myself pick up the pieces..

@matrix-jan..no Google do not ask for additional information from French residents..but..
Google ( and others ) will ( and do ) tell the tax people ( and other authorities ) here if they have sent you money via EFT or otherwise, ( where ever they have sent it to )..if you are a French resident..and if they are asked by the French authorities..and the authorities do ask sometimes..and G do reply, with details..

I was merely pointing out that the same may be the case in other countries..

*Some of those for whom I have intervened and straightened out their affairs and prevented their homes and property being confiscated and major fines levied..are members here at this forum..and ..no I'm not naming names..

The experience of suddenly finding oneself with a "back tax" and social security contributions bill for near 80,000.oo..( over $100k ) is distressing, and when one ( as many do not ) does not understand the language ( particularly the legal language ) totally fluently..it can feel like one's world is ending..and the spectre of jail time, for what is considered here to be tax and social security fraud..is frightening to them..

This is not something which I do as a business..( although maybe I should;) given how much the so called "tax and business experts"/ "investment advisors" etc, whose advice creates these problems, charge here ) it is merely something I have done to help people who find themselves up against the French authorities as a result of what they have been told by so called tax experts ..or they have read in various fora..

So, yes, my idea was to just put my brother's account for few months, nothing more. He has account in my adsense country, I don't.


It may well be that the country( A) which you are resident in.. would consider any monies paid by Google to your relative in another country (B) should have tax paid on them by you in country A ..unless you can prove to them that you ( and not your relative) have paid such taxes on that income in country B ( this is the basis of what are known as "back to back" tax agreements and treaties between countries..
It may also be that Country B's tax authorities..will consider that your relative must pay tax on what is "effectively" ( as it arrives in his bank account ) his income..
IIWY..I'd ask both countries actual tax authorities ( not independent tax advisors for..etc .. the reasons I gave above ) about how they would see what you propose..and get it in writing from both sets of actual tax authorities..

It can help you avoid a world of pain..

swa66




msg:4558717
 8:30 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

French situation above is rather valid for Belgium just as well.

We receive EFT from a Google bank account in Ierland. Google IE does declare their expenses -obviously-. So all any taxman needs to do to hunt down their EU based adsense publishers is talk to the Irish government ...
Easy, simple and efficient: they get them all in one go.

Out here, if you did not declare it as a private tax payer: you're in for a revision (can go back some years (5 I think - more if they prove intend - which they can in this case I suspect). If that income is however not occasional (it is: you get monthly payments ...) or becomes significant: You're in for a show of force of the government. Essentially they'll come hitting you again and again ... first because you're not properly self-employed, then because you didn't declare your income properly being de facto self-employed, then for not paying social security on said income, then for not paying taxes on it ... etc, etc. Essentially all the stuff anybody who's self employed needs to do: you did not do and it all has fines on it for not doing it. Worst of all it come on top of your other income so it falls in your highest tier of taxes (of well beyond 50% for the government).

In the end you probably will pay more than what you earned before the tax man is done with you.
And you can't channel it in a company - since you hid it in your private account.

To me anybody doing this is a fool and playing tax-wise russian roulette.

Moreover any "suspicious" income needs to be reported by your own bank ...
A business getting a monthly deposit of a few thousand EUR: nothing suspicious. A private citizen: quite remarkable as you're not employed by Google Ireland... and your bank most likely knows where you're employed (as that too comes in the same account). Any amount over 5K EUR is essentially "looked" at ... (might be fast - might be automated etc. but it needs to be not suspicious).

You can get lucky and never get caught - or you can be unlucky ...

If you have a business it's easy enough: you simply declare it, it's added to your earnings, you can offset any costs and the profit is taxed, done and it gets taxed at a much better rate than what you'd pay as a private person (most likely self-employed).

Oh, if you do run a business and still collect the money privately - the government has a special rate for you: 309% of the hidden income as a fine. (yep: more than 3 times your hidden income as a fine ... )

matrix_jan




msg:4558723
 9:02 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

What if that relative is not a resident, does not live there, and has a bank account in that country? Or say you cross the border and open an account in Switzerland, and start receiving adsense payments on your Swiss account. Are those earnings still taxable in France or Belgium?

swa66




msg:4558736
 9:55 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

What if that relative is not a resident, does not live there, and has a bank account in that country? Or say you cross the border and open an account in Switzerland, and start receiving adsense payments on your Swiss account. Are those earnings still taxable in France or Belgium?

Foreign accounts need to be declared out here - and they get extra special attention from the taxman. If you cannot justify the source of the income - it's quickly presumed to be illegal gains. You're now opening the door for fraud accusations. And no even the Swiss do not have eternal foolproof privacy.
Moreover if you try to bring the money back to use it, you're likely to attract attention and get caught.

Gambling with the liabilities of relative to evade taxes - I find it not done. Even if the relative is too trusting to let you do it, it's morally and ethically wrong.

Having a resident in another country than you as recipient: Google will not allow you to enter it - you need to have them make their own adsense account - remember you cannot change countries on an adsense account. And those recipients are now taxable in their own country.

Adsense is plain and simple income. Just pay taxes. If you're unhappy with your local taxes then move to e.g. Monaco (-unless you're French- that means no income tax) or any other tax paradise. There's a drawback: you'll have to (be able to afford to) live there (most of the year).

So unless you have a relative in such a place, and want to make them even richer than they already are: forget about it.

Declare the income, pay your taxes. If you're unsure about how to do it: talk to an accountant. If you're in the EU and they have questions regarding VAT: you're contracting with Google Ireland and it's one of the exceptions where you do not collect VAT if you're VAT registered if you're outside of Ireland - inside Ireland it's trivial: you have to collect VAT as usual and google has a special way to interact with the Irish publishers: [support.google.com...]
The rest: stop worrying over it, it's simple.

I'd avoid to take on adsense payments in a self-employed status - taxes are too high out here to do that - but it depends on the income level you're at.
Taking them in as a private person is the worst idea you can have and you're more than likely breaking the law.
So that leaves as best option to start a small company and letting that company handle all your costs (computers, hosting, internet, tools you need, bandwidth, marketing, ...) as well as the associated income (adsense, affiliate sales, ...). Obviously you need to make sure you have enough income to justify the structure and overhead - switch back to the self employed status if you can't justify the overhead for the income involved.

Leosghost




msg:4558749
 11:25 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0)

Agree with everything swa66 has said..
Specific to France*..
What if that relative is not a resident, does not live there, and has a bank account in that country?

That would be a "non resident account"..as per Belgium would be subject to extreme scrutiny and reporting ( to the French tax authorities ..known as even to those who work within them ..or to those who they now employ as occasional consultants* ..as "le Fisc" )..who then tell all the others, ( l' URSSAF etc etc ) by "the bank"..
Or say you cross the border and open an account in Switzerland, and start receiving adsense payments on your Swiss account.

Funnily enough..we have just had a finance minister from the "gauche caviar" had to resign for that very thing..( not adsense , but payments into a Swiss bank account ) and who is under investigation by the courts , having been under investigation by "the fisc" ( as he was the titular head of said "fisc" he had to resign..being the boss of those who are investigating you is no longer publicly acceptable in France..things have moved on since Mr Mitterand ) ..

In France that would be tax evasion or tax fraud.."fraude fiscale"..( plus all the other stuff and some more in the case of France referred to by swa66 re undeclared working/ business etc ) unless you ( or the "person in question" ) then became a permanent Swiss resident ,for fiscal purposes..
Are those earnings still taxable in France or Belgium?


France..? they are taxable in France..unless you can prove that they were declared elsewhere and that tax was paid elsewhere..but if the French consider that they should have been declared in France ( the business was being directed by someone resident in France, or for the benefit of someone resident in France ) ..then even if taxes were / are paid elsewhere..the mandatory social security contributions ( and any fines for non payment in the past ) will be required to be paid in France..and "they" can go "back" further than 5 years..( the "fisc" here.. can go back 6 years ..other parts of the administration can go back further )..non payment or dissimulation can and frequently does result in seizures, fines and even prison terms..sometimes all 3..

It works like Belgium ..they can come back for many bites for the same offence(s) ..and so can each part of the administration..

Oh ..and this is "code Napoleonic"..you have to prove you are innocent..they do not have to prove that you are guilty ..

Disclosure.. *as a result of my many and prolonged interventions for some people with the "fisc"..I was offered by the "fisc", a consultative role regarding "tax fraud" by foreign residents ( and especially those "financial advisors" who advertise to them and who have large client lists )..Most of the time it actually means that if the "fisc" can be assured that the persons genuinely did not understand the French laws and acted in "Good faith"..then the book is not thrown at them..

But in some cases it is..especially when the tax and other authorities consider that someone is taking the piss..as a friend ( head of tax fraud investigation in my region ) said to me.."If any tax man anywhere in the world thinks you are taking the piss..they will bury you, and put your kids on the streets..unless you know the right people..and if you have to wonder if you do ..you don't"..

Btw .France also has a system ( hangover from WW2 ) whereby any jealous neighbor , friend, competitor or disgruntled spouse or partner etc contacts "the fisc "about you and makes allegations of you defrauding the system..( they can make such allegations anonymously which can be enough to start an investigation ) or, if they make them in writing, and give their name and address ..they can be "rewarded" with upto 10% of any sum ( including any fines ) recovered from you..

I have sat in my friends office and heard the denunciative phone calls, and seen the letters, and emails ..many times ..relating to French nationals and non French nationals..not merely to adsense but to all walks of business life..

Such similar systems may well exist elsewhere..

So..as netmeg says elsewhere ..the first rule of fightclub...

And the second is ..unless you know that you know the right people..( and bear in mind that they may not continue being the right people )..pay your taxes..

matrix_jan




msg:4558760
 1:34 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0)

swa66 and Leosghost

Thanks for your full responses. Knowledgeable and experienced members like you are the gems of this forum.

I have one last question. What if someone from e.g. Zimbabwe one day decides to open an adsense account. And since Zimbabwe is nowhere to be found in adsense payment settings our hero flies to France and opens a bank account so that Google Ireland would issue payments. He then uses his French bank card in Zimbabwe to take out cash from an ATM. Is this taxable too? It should be in Zimbabwe, but is it in France? And if yes then do French really need to see some papers that he payed taxes in Zimbabwe to keep tax-dogs on leash?

Leosghost




msg:4558773
 2:37 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0)

What if someone from e.g. Zimbabwe one day decides to open an adsense account. And since Zimbabwe is nowhere to be found in adsense payment settings our hero flies to France and opens a bank account so that Google Ireland would issue payments. He then uses his French bank card in Zimbabwe to take out cash from an ATM. Is this taxable too? It should be in Zimbabwe, but is it in France? And if yes then do French really need to see some papers that he payed taxes in Zimbabwe to keep tax-dogs on leash?

Would depend ( mainly ) if France has a reciprocal ( back to back ) tax agreement with Zimbabwe..
If so ? .. I can ask by phone ( I'm not scheduled to physically be in their offices again ..25kms from where I live ..until after easter )..but.. might not get a reply within 72 hours ..( depending on who is around to give an opinion ) and then it will be the weekend..so I won't know if France and Zimbawe have "back to back" tax agreements*( see below ) , for sure, 'til maybe next week..

France and tax offices ( and other government departments ) and weekends cannot exist in the same space time ;)

But here is my non definitive ( and does not constitute tax advice etc nor engage the French tax offices etc ) take on it..based upon what I've seen ..and conversations with those who have the power to decide such matters here..

"Our hero" ;)

Flies to France to open a bank account ..the bank will ask is "our hero" resident...or isn't (s)he..and to provide proof of either resident status ..or proof of non resident status..in both cases, a passport will be asked for..and often another photo ID will be required in addition..a copy of these and other details ( if resident, such as lease / mortgage papers, and utility bills etc ) will be made by the bank..

Non resident bank accounts are much harder to get under the anti drug money laundering laws than they used to be..

And non resident bank accounts get automatically flagged to "the fisc" as soon as they are opened..with all the details about the account holder ..including passport details and foreign address etc ..

Any money used to open the account will have to be "justified"..usually they do not accept large amounts of cash ..they prefer EFT as opening deposits..

Incoming amounts will be flagged to the "banque de France" BDF ( overseeing regulatory body here ) and possibly directly to "the fisc"..or BDF will pass on such details to the fisc ( and others ) eventually ..

Outgoing amounts over a certain threshold are also flagged..and must be explained in writing ( even though exchange control regulations no longer officially exist here ) ..when I make EFT payments to my manufacturing facilities..I have to give written reasons why and what for..

If an account is set up..and then withdrawals are primarily via cards used in other countries..then this will be flagged by the bank and the BDF or and the fisc will look into it..and may freeze the funds until they are happy with the explanations .. because it will look exactly like money laundering..and if there is no back to back tax arrangement with Zimbabwe .. it will also look like tax avoidance..and also undeclared business activities..

If France and Zimbabwe do have reciprocal tax agreements ( unlikely IMO due to EU controls* ..but I may be wrong )..our hero would still have to provide official paperwork to the French Tax authorities ( could be done via their French bank ) showing that tax was paid in Zimbabwe..without such ..the French tax offices would most likely either freeze all funds..( here they can do sos without a court order..they just write a letter to the bank to say .."freeze all funds until we tell you otherwise" or have the bank remove tax at source..at a rate that our hero would not like ..

Then they would also ( while the account was frozen ) pass the details onto the URSSAF etc ..who would ask a judge to instruct the bank to take out what they considered to be their "cut"..

BTW..French company taxes and compulsory social payments can amount to over 50% of a company's gross earnings..( an accountant and / or good company structure can reduce that..and similarly to what swa66 posted about "deductibles" etc in Belgium, would also apply..but France is not as company friendly, as is say the UK..

Annual fixed overheads and statutory payments for running a French company are far higher than they are in the UK ..which is why many French people leave to work on the other side of the channel..

So.

Let us suppose that our hero is not barred or otherwise impeded from being a company director of a UK company..and does not wish to be resident in France..

Simplest thing to do would be ..open a UK limited company ( can be done on line for less than 100.00 even including an official UK address etc ) .and takes less than 15 minutes with no need to visit the UK..

Many UK companies have non resident directors ..

Company registration agents frequently supply bank introductions..usually to banks who have offices worldwide ( HSBC springs to mind ).thus our hero could have a UK registered business, a UK bank account into which they could receive adsense or other payments ..and a withdrawal card which would work in almost any country worldwide..and the UK company tax rate ( even without an accountant doing their "wizardry" ) is waay bellow that of France..

Our hero would be "legit"..and be paying taxes at UK rates ( and the social payments are also much lower in the UK than they are in France )..and they would have a paper from the UK tax authorities to say they had paid taxes :)

French residents cannot do this ( without the French Tax authorities coming down on them like a ton of bricks )..unless they set it up very very carefully..the various advisors in France who claim to be able to do this for French or expats..can't actually make it work ( the fisc gets the client eventually, and the "advisors" look for another pigeon )..that is when I tend to get the emails or the phone calls asking for "help"..

Major topic drift..( apologies mods and admins ;) but..if it can prevent someone reading here from making the wrong decisions and having problems with the fisc and the URSSAF etc..

HTH :) and that it is reasonably clear ( and not too many typos as I'm writing in English but thinking in French on this subject ;) ..it is near 04.00 am Wednesday here and fatigue is setting in..

matrix_jan




msg:4558791
 3:42 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0)

HTH? Are you kidding me? If I were the owner of this forum I'd send you something out (periodically) as a sign of appreciation for writing such valuable and full responses :)

Thank you again ;)

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