homepage Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 54.197.65.82
register, free tools, login, search, pro membership, help, library, announcements, recent posts, open posts,
Become a Pro Member

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google AdSense
Forum Library, Charter, Moderators: incrediBILL & jatar k & martinibuster

Google AdSense Forum

This 50 message thread spans 2 pages: 50 ( [1] 2 > >     
I thought G was clamping down on MFA sites
DXL

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 6:21 am on Jul 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

I've got a niche hobby site with a few hundred pages. For a while, I started noticing all these identical .info sites creeping onto every single pages of the site. Every domain is identical save for a keyword related to the page it falls on (AllThe____.info), I've added dozens of variations to my filter, but I keep finding more. Visit one of the sites, and you're provided with a few internal page links, each page has five sponsored search results.

Dozens of sites, none of which have a shred of actual content, only sponsored links to advertising sites (I can't determine which ad system the sites use by looking at their source code). Someone's buying up cheap traffic to shuffle them along to other advertisers, is this not an MFA site that Google shouldn't allow?

 

Genuine1

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 9:11 am on Jul 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

Not strictly mfa as in made for adsense but made for ads. Its the same thing though. I have 200 of them in the filter. They buy cheap clicks and make a profit off your back.

Its called click arbitrage.

Google claimed to be cleaning all these bad user experience sites up but if fact only closed adsense accounts of most of the adwords>adsense sites. They ignored adwords>other. But they didnt close the adwords accounts.

So they (mfas) just changed the ads to adwords>other. And there is now more of this crap than before. We need much bigger filters.

vincevincevince

WebmasterWorld Senior Member vincevincevince us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 9:19 am on Jul 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

Absolutely right... MFAdense sites are a dying breed, however MFAdwords sites are doing as well as ever.

MFAdsense sites were doing a lot of damage to Google's reputation due to having Google's name plastered all over so many spammy sites. MFAdwords are arguably less of a problem as they are at least a click away from a site which has Google's branding.

Now think carefully... a MFAdsense which has now switched to 'another major network' and continues to buy Adwords means that users of Google's search, and those who visit non-MFAdsense sites and click on Adsense, will be ending up on exactly the same spammy pages, but this time they are branded by someone else and does damage to them.

e.g.:
Previously: User -> Adwords -> MFAdsense = damage to Google
Now: User -> Adwords -> MF(Competitor) = damage to Google's competitors

Genuine1

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 12:10 pm on Jul 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

But both damage users impression of ads on good publishers sites. This in the end will mean very few people will click on the ads because as my girlfriend already found out "they just lead to more pages of ads". So she totally disregards "ads by google" now.

AussieWebmaster

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 6:59 pm on Jul 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

The garbitrage industry has been changing... the hall of mirrors ads have been significantly reduced - granted it took the regular Google advertisers to pay for it through raised inactive bids so Google did not lose in the transition - but the distinction of good content with appropriate ads (including CPM)that smartly buy traffic for long tail terms but know enough to tighten the content to pull higher paying ads is just good business.

Genuine1

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 8:07 pm on Jul 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

Eh? Can you translate please!

greatstart

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 9:58 pm on Jul 29, 2007 (gmt 0)

I'm still seeing plenty of MFA's. No end in sight! See this popular thread of what type of sites other users are filtering out -

[webmasterworld.com...]

gendude

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 12:49 am on Jul 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

But both damage users impression of ads on good publishers sites.

It also damages your site's reputation, if people think the ads on your site leads to spam sites, they might not visit you again or recommend your site to others.

As I said elsewhere, I've seen a rise in earnings since Google started their crackdown, but at the same time, I still add a few here and there to my filters.

Genuine1

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 2:30 am on Jul 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

Same here. A 50 percent ecpm increase.

And I have emptied and refilled the mfa arb sorry "competitive ad" filter 3 times since then. I have 300 arb sites and only 200 filter spots...

The differance is that the banned sites and all the new ones use not adwords>adsense but adwords>other

However when I temporarily empty it my income drops like a stone! So I have a mad few days refilling it with the current crap ads... The difference between an empty and full filter is about 50 dollars a day - still!

vincevincevince

WebmasterWorld Senior Member vincevincevince us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 3:31 am on Jul 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

However when I temporarily empty it my income drops like a stone!

Not to dispute your findings, but have you considered that when you suddenly release the ads, Google needs time to find out if those ads actually do perform on your site? Google has no data on performance of those ads recently as you had them blocked. I would expect that your income, whilst temporarily down, would rise again in a few more days as soon as there is CTR data to justify demoting those which underperform.

It's just like Adwords - I could start a new campaign for widgets and see a minimum bid of 50, however if I run the ad and leave it for a few days, I should be able to get that down to 10 or lower.

fwakes

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 3:51 am on Jul 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

Actually Adwords have done something you know. A lot of Arbi player has receive warning email from Google Adwords regarding Poor Quality Score and if they insist keep doing that, then their Adwords Account is gone. A lot of my fiend has lost their Adwords acount though.

So I think G has done something about it.

iridiax

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 4:39 am on Jul 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

For a while, I started noticing all these identical .info sites creeping onto every single pages of the site. Every domain is identical save for a keyword related to the page it falls on (AllThe____.info), I've added dozens of variations to my filter, but I keep finding more.

I also see more and more of those arbitraging AllThe____.info and ____info.info ads every day, so it looks to me like these sort of non-Adsense arbitrageurs remain valued Adwords advertisers.

Scurramunga

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 8:28 am on Jul 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

I also see more and more of those arbitraging AllThe____.info and ____info.info ads every day,

Add to that:

AllAbout___.info
Allthe_____.info

icedowl

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 8:58 am on Jul 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

I also see more and more of those arbitraging AllThe____.info and ____info.info ads every day,


Add to that:

AllAbout___.info
Allthe_____.info

And:
about-_____.info

I cleared out my filter a few weeks back just to see what happened. First I checked to see which of the sites that had been in it were still around and were still objectionable. Most had been shut down, and a very few had actually created a decent website.

I'm now refilling the filter with this new batch of crap. Grrrr!

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 10:29 am on Jul 30, 2007 (gmt 0)

I thought G was clamping down on MFA sites

Bet you thought Bush was no longer a problem because it was an election year coming up too? ;)

MFA's and crap AdWords sites, which I was rarely bothered with in the past, seem to be rampant at the moment.

Someone stop the planet, I want to step off...

[edited by: incrediBILL at 10:30 am (utc) on July 30, 2007]

potentialgeek

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 5:47 am on Jul 31, 2007 (gmt 0)

G has Quality Scores for AdWords, but not Adsense. That's a problem. It should automatically suspend every site that is MFA based on a reasonable algo.

Every day it lets this MFA proliferation continue, its brand gets diluted.

G harps about user experience... build your site for the user's experience... but the Google Experience is getting worse and worse wading through a sewer of mfa sites to find what you want.

Pray for a genius to come out of MIT to shut this down. ;)

p/g

valeyard

10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 7:10 am on Jul 31, 2007 (gmt 0)

I really can't understand why Google don't give us more filter slots. Given the size of database they're used to dealing with the extra few million rows would be trivial to handle. For the cost of a little extra disk space Google could get good PR and an improved user experience.

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 8:00 am on Jul 31, 2007 (gmt 0)

an improved user experience

They already have an improved user experience if you define user as SHAREHOLDER

Scurramunga

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 8:46 am on Jul 31, 2007 (gmt 0)


I really can't understand why Google don't give us more filter slots.

Because they have already given all their slots away away to MFA webmasters...err..I mean....adwords publishers. ;-)

zett

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 11:26 am on Jul 31, 2007 (gmt 0)

I really can't understand why Google don't give us more filter slots.

One thing is for sure: it is NOT a technical issue, like database size or response time. The filter was never real-time anyway.

No, the reason for the weak filter is simple - Google has no interest in publishers blocking web sites. THEY want to decide for us. Otherwise they would not have taken the ability to track the destination URLs. Now most of us are "flying blind" when it comes to who advertises on our sites and what.

Under the light of the last earnings report, I do not think that we will see any improvements to the filter at all. Just imagine all the parked domains and thin-content sites would be gone...! All that'd be left would be a couple of mom'n'pop businesses and a few big wigs with enough content to not be regarded as MFA.

I have given up hope for a) a better filter and b) a serious dialogue between the webmaster community and the Adsense program on the future of the product.

All I hope for is MSFT to get their act together and launch an Adcenter that is globally available and fairly balances the power between advertisers and publishers.

drall

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 12:15 pm on Jul 31, 2007 (gmt 0)

We are getting closer and closer to removing adsense from our network. We own several very large sites and when you have users emailing you about deceptive ads at a pace never before seen then its time to look into a change. We suspect that most of these guys are the serious players that Google kicked out of the arbi game.

WiseWebDude

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 8:13 pm on Aug 7, 2007 (gmt 0)

MFA sites are the scourge of the internet right now, I agree. I am fed up with seeing those types of sites and it is ruining the net to be sure. Something has to be done about them. One thing we ALL should make sure to do is never click on one of their ads in those sites. I have even personally spoken with Google, a few times, and complained that those MFA sites/parked pages are ruining a good thing. Google stated that they work, I disagree 100%. I HOPE they stop that garbage before they get people so sick of it that they won't click on legit ads...kind of like crying wolf too much type of thing.

Genuine1

5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 8:31 pm on Aug 7, 2007 (gmt 0)

They "work" in that they have got rid of adwords>adsense arb sites in june mostly.

Because they were just sucking up advertisers money and stealing from legit publishers. Another layer taking from the pot and adding nothing.

Now most of the same parked domains, and other arb sites/mfas have switched to adwords>other non adsense ads.

So now whilst still offering a crap user experience and rapidly putting people off ever clicking an "ads by google" ad, they are at least adding something to the google pot. Trouble is they all bid peanuts and pay even less once google takes its cut. So for a bunch of reasons they are better filtered!

I deleted my 200 filtered mfas on wednesday. As usual ecpm fell by a third from around 34.xx to 20.xx and stayed there. I am now wasting another couple of days as I have to every month refilling it with the latest crap - sorry crop...

I use the tool, and block everything with ads/has no real end product or service. I do this in UK, US, Canada for every single page. Then I have to go over it all again a few days later because that lets a few more in... Trouble is the filter is far too small so I then have to guess which ones are the biggest offenders.

[edited by: Genuine1 at 8:33 pm (utc) on Aug. 7, 2007]

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 9:28 pm on Aug 7, 2007 (gmt 0)

To clarify...

There is absoluttely NOTHING wrong with MFA sites or any other form of affiliate marketing as it's a valid business model.

If you're a competitive webmaster you can compete with them head-to-head and make sure their business model fails.

However, if you prefer to sit and whine about them being the scourge of the 'net instead of keeping them down in the SERPs and blocked or outbid in the ads, then you'll fail.

europeforvisitors



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 11:09 pm on Aug 7, 2007 (gmt 0)

There is absoluttely NOTHING wrong with MFA sites or any other form of affiliate marketing as it's a valid business model.

That's open to debate. One could argue (indeed, I will argue) that certain Internet business models such as MFA sites and boilerplate affiliate sites are bad for users and ultimately bad for the Web because they're parasitic, have no value for anyone except their owners, and attract the kind of greedy, self-centered, shortsighted entrepreneurs who clutter the Web with spam and make it harder for search engines to do their job. You're welcome to disagree with that opinion, of course (as you obviously do).

Also, it's possible to dislike certain business models (such as click arbitrage) without having selfish business reasons for doing so. I'm not aware of any threat from MFAs on my site, but that doesn't mean I don't dislike their existence for other (and objective) reasons.

MikeNoLastName

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 11:30 pm on Aug 7, 2007 (gmt 0)

I agree 100% with EFV even though I realize Adsense doesn't care since they still get the supposed highest clickthru price.
I don't usually follow the ads too closely, and generally trust Adsense to select the highest paying, etc. But today I just noticed a significant downtrend in CPM/PPC (with all else pretty constant) for the last couple days and decided to take a look. I found all the same sites as being described (a lot of them are .org and .net too) and instantly added them to the filter AND reported them to Adsense (so if one of you out there loses your account soon you'll know who to blame :). 90% of them were obviously all from the same maker.
I think what their game is, as someone mentioned in passing, is that they create many, many throw away sites on domains, which each gets exposed well for a few days via adwords until they have enough history that adwords realizes they have a bad experience or low CTR and discredits them, then they move one to new domains. By exploiting Adword's need to develop a history and constantly changing the sites as soon as they get bumped, they get guaranteed AND cheap exposure? Is this indeed a loophole or doesn't adwords work this way? I have never used it, only read about it here.

>>If you're a competitive webmaster you can compete with them head-to-head and make sure their business model fails.

Explain to me how this works? Other than cutting off their ad impressions via the filter.

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 1:38 am on Aug 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

One could argue (indeed, I will argue) that certain Internet business models such as MFA sites and boilerplate affiliate sites are bad for users and ultimately bad for the Web because they're parasitic, have no value for anyone except their owners, and attract the kind of greedy, self-centered, shortsighted entrepreneurs who clutter the Web with spam and make it harder for search engines to do their job

By your definition one could also claim boilerplate business models of any kind are bad in general, such as McD's and BurgerKind because they are greedy as well. The more the build and clutter the landscape the more they sell, just like an MFA in Google. Then of course we have WalMart which puts tons of local businesses out of business as they move into small towns and dominate the market.

There are companies that outperform McD's and even Walmart in certain venues and then there are those that sit and whine that they can't compete.

I didn't say I liked MFA's did I?

I just said that they are a legitimate business model that was actually created by all the ecommerce companies and advertising media that want their product in front of as many eyeballs as possible.

However, although I give them the right of existence since the market created them, I'm certainly not going to site idly by on my hands and lose positions in the SERPs to the bottom feeding vermin.

Besides, the best user experience is if user get to where they wanted to be, even if that's through an intermediary site, and if YOUR website couldn't deliver that to the user and the MFA did, then you actually let the MFA win, just like other large and small businesses let Walmart win.

The difference on the internet is that ANYONE can be a Walmart and lock up the SERPs for your niche, even a 1 man operation, so if can be someone like EFV cranking out quality content of the MFA cranking out crap. If you're a competitive webmaster with an authority site and the MFA wins it's only because you LET them win.

EOM

incrediBILL

WebmasterWorld Administrator incredibill us a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 1:50 am on Aug 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

>>If you're a competitive webmaster you can compete with them head-to-head and make sure their business model fails.

Explain to me how this works? Other than cutting off their ad impressions via the filter.

It's SEM 101 my friend because the organic SERPs is where we all make the free money and arbitrage can get overly expensive for the true MFA.

If you find an MFA in your niche SERPs, bury them below the top 10 at a minimum. This can be accomplished by getting a couple of listings of your own for that keyword leaving only 8 spots left. Then help promote your competitors for the same topic just enough to knock out the MFA. Doesn't sound logical but it does help you create the proper neighborhood so that you're found listed with the types of companies you prefer instead of bottom feeders.

Now if you lean toward the blackhat SEO crowd and wish to be a vigilante you can get a list of anonymous proxy servers and use them to deliberately give the MFA a Google penalty of some sort often discussed at WebmasterWorld. I won't go into specifics, but you can zap someone if you really want to do it.

I took another approach as most of the MFAs attacking my niche were scraping my site so I removed their ability to scrape my site (bot blocking) and fed some of them bogus pages full of words designed to invoke PSA's instead of showing actual ads.

Other options exist as well, but that's a start.

tim222

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 1:55 am on Aug 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

I wonder why MFA ads show up on some sites but not on others. Every thime I see the MFA threads I check my site and all I see are decent ads. Some are firms that also advertise on radio and network TV. Some are less recognizable companies that obviously are not MFA websites.

Could this have something to do with the number of ad units on a page? Most of my pages have one text ad and one image ad. Some longer pages have another text ad at the bottom.

Or is it possible that my site is targetted by the firms whose ads appear? Some are pretty consistent. Is there a way to find out if advertisers picked my site to run their ads?

Wlauzon

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member



 
Msg#: 3407533 posted 2:19 am on Aug 8, 2007 (gmt 0)

There is absoluttely NOTHING wrong with MFA sites or any other form of affiliate marketing as it's a valid business model.

From a "business model" standpoint perhaps not.

As an SE user there is a LOT wrong with it, especially since the SE's - especially Google - cannot seem to distinquish between "real" sites and MFA sites.

If users search for an item, and all that comes up is ad sites, that certainly does nothing to impress the user.

And it is for that reason that I have been using MSN Live search a lot more lately.

This 50 message thread spans 2 pages: 50 ( [1] 2 > >
Global Options:
 top home search open messages active posts  
 

Home / Forums Index / Google / Google AdSense
rss feed

All trademarks and copyrights held by respective owners. Member comments are owned by the poster.
Home ¦ Free Tools ¦ Terms of Service ¦ Privacy Policy ¦ Report Problem ¦ About ¦ Library ¦ Newsletter
WebmasterWorld is a Developer Shed Community owned by Jim Boykin.
© Webmaster World 1996-2014 all rights reserved