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AdSense Disabling Arbitrage Accounts by June 1st - Part 2
econman




msg:3350066
 7:23 pm on May 25, 2007 (gmt 0)

Thread continued from: [webmasterworld.com...]


There seem to be several very solid, important topics that need exploring. Perhaps one of the moderators would like to establish a new thread for the purpose, but it can also be explored as a continuation this one.

Either way, it's starting to look like this isn't a mirage -- something real and important has happened, and thus it would be worthwhile to understand what's going on.

Here are some thoughts on the potential focus of a new thread, or future discussions in this thread.

Topic 1. What is the true scope of this change?

At the narrow end of the spectrum, perhaps Google is targeting a very narrowly defined business plan or a very specific type of arbitrage site -- with little or no real content, using Adwords to obtain traffic and using Adsense to generate revenue.

At wide end of the specturm, this might be an early sign that Google is going to stamp out any business plan that adversely affects public perceptions of its Adwords and Adsense brands.

To enhance and protect its Adsense brand, Google could stop running Adsense on scraper sites, little-to-no-content sites, sites with mostly nonsense text, etc.

To enhance and protect its Adwords brand, Google block these types of sites from running Adwords campaigns, even if they generate their revenues using affiliate programs, display ads, YPN, etc.

Topic 2: What will be the indirect effect of this change on other publishers and advertisers -- those who are not being kicked out of Adsense?

Topic 3: How should webmasters adjust their strategies and business plans, in response to the change and in anticipation of the indirect effects of the change?

There's been some discussion and speculation about all 3 of these topics already, but a more in-depth, thoughtful analysis could be developed if we pool our collective knowledge and insights.

Of course, these 3 topics are related, since future effects and future strategies will depend on what's really going on -- the true scope of this change.

 

DonMateo




msg:3350932
 2:58 am on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

The fact that the arbitrageurs are paying AdWords customers could explain the polite approach.

And the fact that they aren't explicitly breaking any terms and conditions. They can't just be booted.

aeiouy




msg:3350933
 2:58 am on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

Unfortunately the internet is not so easy dividable in "product" and "content" sites. There is much inbetween. I am for example currently running an AdWords campaign to promote a forum section of a site to quickly get at a critical mass of members. The site contains AdSense ads and currently no other type of advertising.

But if they were doing things properly, your site would be discounted for not being worthy. If you really were just looking to drive your membership and up your numbers, you could certainly do so without adsense on there. That being said if you could demonstrate another tangible benefit or ultimately a revenue source to support the adwords campaign you would be fine. I think a forum is such a place. So it would be alright.

blend27




msg:3350935
 3:09 am on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

P.S. dontbeevil

Nice

chikung




msg:3350957
 4:05 am on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

Sorry, I never thought "great Egg_basket model" is possible in every situation. Even we try there will be imbalance of income. Its not sure other sources will provide the similar income that we get from adsense. Though the idea of divercifying income is tempting, its not easy at the same time. Why not someone thinking of getting some sort of assurance from google if we are honestly following TOC throughout from the beginning till the date. Is it always necessary to control us by the means of continuous fear and pressure of getting banned?

oneguy




msg:3350964
 4:28 am on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

That being said if you could demonstrate another tangible benefit or ultimately a revenue source to support the adwords campaign you would be fine.

Interesting. So, if you advertise via adwords, Google should make sure you aren't a publisher that might rely on advertising as a revenue method. EFV agree?

I have some sites where I advertise via adwords where Google really has no idea how I make money. I'm not saying that they aren't smart enough to figure it out. I'm just saying they don't need to know and don't care. It's not arbitrage, mfa, etc.

Let's say I want to pay G for broad match on a particular term, because it fits. They like that. Only some people actually want what I'm offering. For people who don't want that, I should give some other choices. I can send them back through adsense, or I can send them someplace else through affiliate links or another ad network. Either way, it's relevant, it's the smart thing to do, and it's good for the user experience. I bet G prefers adsense.

Now, some people seem to think that affiliates should not be part of the mix. However, I can't be all things to all people. Traffic can be expensive, and I have to monetize outbound traffic to some extent. It's part of being competitive. There's no way Google wants everyone to bid on the most narrow terms possible. They're running a winner's curse auction format, and trying to maximize their returns. I have to take care of the traffic I get from that, so I can buy more.

jeffgroovy




msg:3350972
 5:07 am on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

Interesting. So, if you advertise via adwords, Google should make sure you aren't a publisher that might rely on advertising as a revenue method. EFV agree?

I have some sites where I advertise via adwords where Google really has no idea how I make money. I'm not saying that they aren't smart enough to figure it out. I'm just saying they don't need to know and don't care. It's not arbitrage, mfa, etc.

IMHO this ordeal has gone from an arbitrage issue as believed in the beginning to just a flat out "little or no value sites get whacked" especially if they aren't just downgrading a users adsense experience but his adwords experience as well. Unlike in the past they are doing it waves, and from the current silence of good webmasters, we also know G is hand selecting their partners to terminate as stated earlier by EFV I believe. So I'm saying it's STILL alright to use adwords to your quality site, just make sure it's to a QUALITY site. It's not a question of your sites revenue sources, it's a question of your sites purpose. G isn't so arrogant to boot good quality content sites even if there is no obvious VISIBLE motive like selling products or services.

When/if high quality content sites that don't sell products and services get whacked google will be giving their competition (albeit pathetic as of the time of this writing) a real arm or a leg to get their program off the ground. Everyone on solid ground (quality content) right now need to chill, and keep doing what they do, while building new revenue sources, not so you can say you aren't an MFA, but because it's a good idea in a rapidly changing Internet.

Green_Grass




msg:3350985
 5:48 am on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

EFY
"2) I'd rather see AdSense ads on a mom-and-pop content site than on "buying and selling products" site (where AdSense ads suggest that the merchant doesn't have a viable business). "

I am surprised EFY can make such a comment. I have small e commerce website selling cheap widgets only in my country. It ranks at position 4-10 in the SERPS , so gets decent organic traffic also. I use adWords, with geo targetting to push the site in my country. Adsense provides a valuable and important alternative for users who donot want the specific niche product I offer and for surfers from countries where I donot ship.

I think, this is a correct use of adSense on the ecommerce site, along with adWords. Where is the problem?

Marcia




msg:3351007
 7:14 am on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

When people want to buy stuff, they want ecommerce sites; otherwise outfits like Macy's and Walmart better close up shop on their websites and admit they made a mistake. But most often, people selling things don't want to run ads (like Adsense) for their competition.

But on another note, I wonder if Adsense will be going after all those squeeze pages next.

Green_Grass




msg:3351092
 1:17 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

Not every one is Macy's or a WalMart.

Not every one's site lists on first page of Search Results.

Not everyone is perfect.

So Maybe, just Maybe, adWords and adSense can make sense together sometimes......

europeforvisitors




msg:3351116
 2:19 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

So, if you advertise via adwords, Google should make sure you aren't a publisher that might rely on advertising as a revenue method. EFV agree?

No, I don't agree. In this thread, I've twice used the example of THE NEW YORK TIMES, which uses AdWords/AdSense ads to obtain traffic but also has AdWords ads on its pages. No rational person would suggest that THE NEW YORK TIMES is an MFA or a click-arbitrage site. A rational person might suggest that no publisher should use AdWords/AdSense for attracting users to a "thin content" site that's designed to flip traffic to AdSense ads. (It's also reasonable to assume that Google's PhDs are capable of devising a "quality score" to separate real sites from arbitrage sites; for example, a page with three ad units, very little content, and an unusually high CTR for its topic might sound a few alarm bells.)

As for Green_Grass's comment's about using AdSense ads on a commerce site, it's up to users to decide whether the presence of such ads on a commerce site is a sign of a marginal business. I was simply responding to the odd suggestion a few posts earlier that Google should limit AdSense ads to sites that are buying or selling things. That notion goes completely against the concept of AdSense (and of advertising, which traditionally is used in media, not in other vendors' sales brochures.)

fearlessrick




msg:3351188
 4:45 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

It's often difficult to distinguish between what's truth and what's just plain BS on threaded discussons, but the level of unabashed misinformation on this one is incredibly high. Between pronouncements and mea culpas from admitted MFAs and arbitaguers to the "fear factor" of some of the so-called "honest" publishers, this already-too-long thread is becoming nothing more than an old-fashioned BS session. I've read most of the posts and haven't been able to garner much except that 1. some people are being booted, 2. Google is watching and finally interested in cleaning up the content network, and 3. some people are really full of it.

That's about all. Color me skeptical.

[edited by: encyclo at 9:23 pm (utc) on May 27, 2007]

trinorthlighting




msg:3351191
 4:55 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

I think most of the arbitrage sites that are getting the boot send poor quality traffic to the advertiser anyways who ultimately pays the bill. Why people are in an uproar about this, well if your one who is getting shut down, you have the right to. Everyone else who is speculating, there is no need to because you should not be worried.

This is a move by google to attempt to put some faith back into the content network since most advertisers opt out right now.

europeforvisitors




msg:3351196
 5:11 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

Trinorthlighting wrote:

This is a move by google to attempt to put some faith back into the content network since most advertisers opt out right now.

It would be interesting to know (though we aren't likely to learn) what percentage of AdWords advertisers do use the content network, and what percentage of those advertisers have even tried the content network for any length of time.

[edited by: encyclo at 9:24 pm (utc) on May 27, 2007]

trinorthlighting




msg:3351260
 7:19 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

Want to do a comparison of the amount of people who opt out? Pick a key word, find a good content site that is appropriate to that keyword and compare it to the keyword in the natural serps. Compare the advertisers on the content site and compare the the advertisers in natural serps.

You can also ask people on the adwords side of web master world and you will see that most of them opt out as well.

econman




msg:3351389
 10:35 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

If, in fact, a substantial fraction of the advertisers have been opting out of the content network, that suggests a thorough housecleaning will ultimately benefit Google, and most publishers who survive the cut.

What I would most love to know is whether this is the end of the line, or just the opening phase of a much broader plan to upgrade the content network.

Some have been complaining about not being given more notice. If this is the first phase of a broader plan to upgrade the Adsense/Adwords brands, then we all need to start thinking hard about where our sites fit on the quality continuum, and what we can do to improve them.

Play_Bach




msg:3351399
 10:53 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

> most of them opt out as well.

I don't see eBay and any number of huge portal sites opting out. Why? My hunch is that the content network is too lucrative to ignore and as far as they're concerned, traffic=$. If they don't advertise on the content network, their competitors will - that's not something market leaders like eBay are likely to let go unchallenged.

[edited by: Play_Bach at 10:59 pm (utc) on May 27, 2007]

Marcia




msg:3351408
 11:14 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

The average Adwords advertiser isn't Ebay, and as for the difference between Ebay and a "normal" provider of goods, the normal merchants - or other types of genuine sales sites - win hands down for user experience. That was never more clearly seen than this past Holiday season.

The problem is that a bunch of the swill out there has been competing voraciously, and there's so much of it out there that regular vendors or their agents have had no choice but to stop wasting their click money to run their ads on useless real estate.

Play_Bach




msg:3351409
 11:19 pm on May 27, 2007 (gmt 0)

I agree with you Marcia. My point was simply that not ALL advertisers are opting out of the content network. I'm hoping that Google does eventually regain whatever credibility was lost once the 'swill' has been purged.

Hokiboy




msg:3351448
 1:36 am on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Surprise and disappointed, as publisher , we too diligent and pass the time to discuss about MFA , let's use our time to write the something that worth for user.

3 poin I want to ask :
1. Why we build the website? hobby or want make more money?
2. Why we joint with the adsense?
3. Why we hate those MFA? MFA joint with the adsense , non with us.

europeforvisitors




msg:3351734
 2:29 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

My point was simply that not ALL advertisers are opting out of the content network.

That's definitely true. For the last year or so, I've been seeing higher-quality ads overall than I was before then, with more "real" advertisers and a substantial reduction in pure affiliate booking sites.

On the downside (and this isn't related to arbitrage or MFAs), I've also been seeing fewer ads for mom-and-pop businesses such as hotels in Widgetville or B&Bs in Elbonia City. I suspect the AdWords/AdSense buying process has become too complicated for a lot of rank-and-file business people. Complexity and the buyer experience are other issues that AdWords/AdSense will need to address when the current purge is finished. To attract a broad range of advertisers, the buying process needs to be as simple (or nearly as simple) as buying a classified ad in a newspaper or an ad in a Yellow Pages directory.

Play_Bach




msg:3351810
 4:25 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

> To attract a broad range of advertisers, the buying process needs to be as simple (or nearly as simple)
> as buying a classified ad in a newspaper or an ad in a Yellow Pages directory.

I agree with that as well which is why I've gone ahead and put the "Advertise on this site" link back on my sites (misnomer that it is) since Google removed the link from the layout with the new ad designs:
[adsense.blogspot.com...]

I wonder if Google will eventually release some brain dead simple way for the average user to set up an ad campaign via an "Advertise on this site" type link again - but one that works. Hope so.

[edited by: Play_Bach at 4:52 pm (utc) on May 28, 2007]

jason207




msg:3351825
 4:52 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

Almost 2 weeks ago(may 15) i got an email from the US ebay affilate program, basically saying they will no longer pay commissions on sales that use any major ppc service to drive traffic directly to ebay, you can use a landing page inbetween, but no adwords etc, direct to the ebay site. It also starts june 1st. heres a snippet

so is this also part of google cleaning up adwords/adsense? or is ebay just realizing that "bad" advertisers and/or dynamically inserted keyword ads are bad for their brand and are cleaning house on their own after seeing google clean up adwords/adsense throughout this year(with no loss of earnings yet). Of course ebay may have decided the dynamic ads are too profitable and want to cut out the middleman. Or maybe starting their own ppc ad service?

while june 1st does seem like a good date to launch new policies etc, to me it just seems like too much of a coincidence, having 2 such major crackdowns being announced at virtually the same time. Makes me wonder if there isn't something really big going on behind the scenes industry wide, and we are just seeing the tip of the ice burg. Makes me also wonder what is going down next? parked domains? wikipedia clones?

[edited by: martinibuster at 6:14 pm (utc) on May 28, 2007]
[edit reason] Edited email quote.See TOS [webmasterworld.com] [/edit]

Hobbs




msg:3351831
 4:59 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

too much of a coinkidink indeed, but I don't think it's an industry wide crack down, it's more like a "keep your daughter away from my son" kind of thing.

jomaxx




msg:3351873
 5:40 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

A lot of affiliate programs have the exact same policy eBay is adopting. They advertise via PPC and simply don't want to have to compete with their own affiliates. I don't see any connection to click arbitrage.

Khensu




msg:3351880
 5:50 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

coinkidink

Oh that's good.

It is amazing how many people want an explanation or a "leg-up" on a work around. Do you actually think G is going provide such information? Come on.

DamonHD




msg:3351882
 5:51 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

No, but maybe G and eBay had a little discussion behind the scenes at a SV cocktail party and G said "Since we're spring cleaning, how about helping us avoid a rash of new and used dead popes ads, which trash your brand too"...

Rgds

Damon

Hobbs




msg:3351898
 6:11 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

- You know Vitto, I've watched your son work in our area, he's not respecting the family no more, even the Pope, no good, people get hurt this way, I hope you understand.
- But it's the family Don..
- No Vitto, today it's the business.

<fade away scene from Sicilian villa into the Mediterranean where a fishing boat is picking up what looks like a floating object>

bw3ttt




msg:3351902
 6:17 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

<<I don't see eBay opting out>>

Actually eBay Germany does not buy Adsense traffic because they feel it is of poor quality..

netmeg




msg:3351908
 6:38 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

I've also been seeing fewer ads for mom-and-pop businesses such as hotels in Widgetville or B&Bs in Elbonia City. I suspect the AdWords/AdSense buying process has become too complicated for a lot of rank-and-file business people.

I'm actually seeing a few more of these this year, mostly in the northern part of my state, which is considered a big summer tourist area (not much else up there). And you're definitely right on the latter, although I think they're certainly still trying. When I attended an AdWords seminar in March, it was billed as 'intermediate/advanced' and people came in from hundreds of miles away - mostly small mom-and-pop types, and most of the ones I talked to readily admitted the course was way beyond their beginners level, but it was the only one that had ever come here and they were absolutely desperate to learn ANYTHING they could about AdWords. The seminar was packed. Since then I've been contacted by at least eight people from the seminar asking for help.

jason207




msg:3351936
 7:33 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)


Do you actually think G is going provide such information? Come on.

what special "secret" evidence do they need to give out other than public forums and blogs full of QS affected advertisers
proclaiming the end of adwords due to the decision, yet their profits continue to rise. it's not like they have to give out conversion rates or smart pricing algo's to show that "new and used dead popes" aren't good for their brand. All that public info is great discussion material on the golf courses, bars, cocktail parties etc etc.


I don't see any connection to click arbitrage

while not directly, but you have 2 major players making huge policy changes on grey area tactics that each company fully embraced at first, at virtually the same time. I dont like wearing a tinfoil hat, but it's hard not to wear it here. Both decisions took alot of time to make, probaly a year or more, and both decide at the same time. Of course june 1st is the perfect time to make changes so it could just be a coincidence. And of course its easier for ebay to just shut it all down than it is to maintain a list of banned keywords. I don't think there was an official meeting or there's some giant conspiracy or anything, people like to talk on the 18th hole, and even more so on hole 19.

Another thing to consider is when google,y,msn etc do something the others follow suit fast. adwords starts using landing page quality, yahoo and msn follow. adsense is a success, y and msn follow with programs. It goes both ways as well, if y or msn succeeds at something, google has to compete in it. So this could start a wave of "spring cleaning" across the board, with each company trying to one-up each other on who has the "cleanest" network. While that is more of an advertiser topic, one of the parts of adwords is adsense so any cleaning up on the adwords side will most likely effect publishers. This may turn out to be a pretty interesting year.

Hobbs




msg:3352004
 9:32 pm on May 28, 2007 (gmt 0)

The title of this thread should be:
AdSense Disabling MFA owner's Accounts .. not Arbitrage

This 260 message thread spans 9 pages: < < 260 ( 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 > >
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